Is Islam The Problem?

[brennan]

Undermine extremist recruitment by stopping:

Drone strikes.
Support for dictators.
Rendition and torture.
Phony wars.

There's lots of reasons why these people think they are at war. Remove that pillar to their rationale.

 

[Funky]

OK. Let's assume, just for argument's sake, that Islam is the Problem?

Whatchagonnadoaboutit?

Read my post from page 6.

In short, acknowledging a problem is the first step to solving it. We need ruthless debate and rigorous challenging of bad ideas, without political correctness prohibiting us from speaking out. We need to side with secular Muslims around the globe, who are being hunted and killed for questioning aspects of their belief. We must apply conversational intolerance to those who claim that Islam is inherently benign and not in need of reform.

For starters, we should stop having such a pussified attitide about offending people. I am offended every day when I open the paper and see that yet another Muslim has killed a few dozen people. Or by Muslims, who we once open-heartedly let into Germany, having claimed whole districts of Berlin, Bochum, Duisburg and other German cities for themselves, not abiding by the rules of German law and attacking or insulting any non-Muslim who trespasses into "their territory".
If speaking the truth and bringing up facts is offensive to someone, it is he who should question his beliefs.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Ten pages in I am sure someone has already mentioned it. USA supporting wahabi Sauds and USA "fighting" terrorist which they are helping to create.

Problem in the first place isnt any ideology but plain stupidity, global greed and hypocricy of the elites. Anything else is secondary.

 

[Funky]

Ten pages in I am sure someone has already mentioned it. USA supporting wahabi Sauds and USA "fighting" terrorist which they are helping to create.

Problem in the first place isnt any ideology but plain stupidity, global greed and hypocricy of the elites. Anything else is secondary.

I see. Muslims avenging their prophet and killing cartoonists is due to global greed. Pakistanis hacking up blasphemist bloggers with Machetes has to do with hypocrisy of the elites. The attempt to establish a caliphate as prescribed in the Koran and applying sharia is purely political. Al-Shabaab and Boko Haram fighting jihad and killing Chrisians in Kenya and Nigeria is not inspired by religion. Women being restricted from the public, as prescribed in the Koran, is not due to religion, but "plain stupidity" (as if the two were mutually exclusive). Sunnis and Shiites drilling holes into each other heads has to do with the evil-doings of the West.
Sorry for being sarcastic, but this attempt to exclude religion as an explanation against all the facts, on page ten of a thread in which the connections between Islamic scripture and Muslim behaviour have been pointed out repeatedly, strikes me as intellectual laziness.

 

[Tahuti]

For starters, we should stop having such a pussified attitide about offending people. I am offended every day when I open the paper and see that yet another Muslim has killed a few dozen people.

I suspect newspapers are the problem... And it applies to Muslims as well, for they will read: Westerner blows up x people.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I see. Muslims avenging their prophet and killing cartoonists is due to global greed. Pakistanis hacking up blasphemist bloggers with Machetes has to do with hypocrisy of the elites. The attempt to establish a caliphate as prescribed in the Koran and applying sharia is purely political. Al-Shabaab and Boko Haram fighting jihad and killing Chrisians in Kenya and Nigeria is not inspired by religion. Women being restricted from the public, as prescribed in the Koran, is not due to religion, but "plain stupidity" (as if the two were mutually exclusive). Sunnis and Shiites drilling holes into each other heads has to do with the evil-doings of the West.
Sorry for being sarcastic, but this attempt to exclude religion as an explanation against all the facts, on page ten of a thread in which the connections between Islamic scripture and Muslim behaviour have been pointed out repeatedly, strikes me as intellectual laziness.

If the West (out of greed and might is right) occupies whole regions and doesnt allow free developments of respective countries but instead supports its puppets in goverments which block natural course of self-development of these countries all for its business interest and to keep its superiority and control instead of proper friendly equal relations it deserves what it gets. Suppression is never without opposing reaction. Islamic ideology is just a tool for people who cant politicaly and socialy realise themselves and more or less harmoniously sort out their own issues in face of a bigger gun hold by the West.

First you suppress some peoples freedom secretly for the sake of your greed and imperialistic interests and when they react using whatever means available to them in regard to their specific cultural background you accuse them that they are wicked?

Christianity had their scientist and witch burning, their crusades and what not but the society when allowed free course of development gets rid of the unhealthy, unprogressive and ******ing elements. This natural development seems to be blocked in muslim countries also becouse for the West its easier to control the poor, weak and divided.

 

[JollyRoger]

Christian women in Texas still behead, stone to death, and chop off the limbs of their children. So . . .

In short, acknowledging a problem is the first step to solving it. We need ruthless debate and rigorous challenging of bad ideas, without political correctness prohibiting us from speaking out. We need to side with secular Christians around the globe, who are being hunted and killed for questioning aspects of their belief. We must apply conversational intolerance to those who claim that Christianity is inherently benign and not in need of reform.

For starters, we should stop having such a pussified attitide about offending people. I am offended every day when I open the paper and see that yet another Christian has her children. Or by Christians, who we once open-heartedly let into the United States, having claimed whole districts of Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, and states for themselves, not abiding by the rules of U.S. law (county clerks, politicians, and preachers openly defying the Supreme Court) and attacking or insulting any non-Christians who trespasses into "their territory" or "their theology".
If speaking the truth and bringing up facts is offensive to someone, it is he who should question his beliefs.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Ten pages in I am sure someone has already mentioned it. USA supporting wahabi Sauds and USA "fighting" terrorist which they are helping to create.

Problem in the first place isnt any ideology but plain stupidity, global greed and hypocricy of the elites. Anything else is secondary.

Yep.

But that certainly isn't going to stop the rampant Islamophobic rhetoric.

Christianity had their scientist and witch burning, their crusades and what not but the society when allowed free course of development gets rid of the unhealthy, unprogressive and ******ing elements. This natural development seems to be blocked in muslim countries also becouse for the West its easier to control the poor, weak and divided.

That is a most excellent point. The US government continues to support the very same Muslims who are prone to become terrorists while continuing to try to destroy the more secular ones for various reasons.

We overthrew the democratically elected government in Iran and put in a fascist puppet dictator. Eventually, they managed to oust him, naturally blamed the US, and turned their country into one where a cleric was in control of the democratically elected president. All because we wanted to control their oil.

We meddled in iraq affairs repeatedly and eventually put Saddam Hussein in charge as another puppet. Had him declare war on Iran to get even and even supplied him with WMDs to use when he was losing. That 8-year war fomented even more fundamentalism. But what was far worse is that we finally deposed and executed Hussein even though his country was one of the few remaining secular countries in the region, and he was largely controlling the terrorism by both the Sunnis and the Kurds.

Speaking of the Kurds, we supported their terrorism against Iran for decades which continues to destabilize Iran, Iraq, and Turkey.

But worst of all is how we kowtow to the most backward Muslims in the entire region, the Wahabbis, who live in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates for the most part. They are Sunni so they perceive Iran, Iraq, and Syria as their enemies. And they refuse to fight against ISIL with their armies, even though their combined stength would easily destroy them, because they have secretly supported their efforts against the Shia since their inception.

And then add refusing to criticize Israel no matter what atrocities they commit, it is small wonder that the US isn't incessantly plagued with terrorism attacks.

We probably couldn't have done a better job fomenting fundamentalism and terrorism in the region if we had made that the stated objective all along.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Christian women in Texas still behead, stone to death, and chop off the limbs of their children. So . . .

In short, acknowledging a problem is the first step to solving it. We need ruthless debate and rigorous challenging of bad ideas, without political correctness prohibiting us from speaking out. We need to side with secular Christians around the globe, who are being hunted and killed for questioning aspects of their belief. We must apply conversational intolerance to those who claim that Christianity is inherently benign and not in need of reform.

For starters, we should stop having such a pussified attitide about offending people. I am offended every day when I open the paper and see that yet another Christian has her children. Or by Christians, who we once open-heartedly let into the United States, having claimed whole districts of Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, and states for themselves, not abiding by the rules of U.S. law (county clerks, politicians, and preachers openly defying the Supreme Court) and attacking or insulting any non-Christians who trespasses into "their territory" or "their theology".
If speaking the truth and bringing up facts is offensive to someone, it is he who should question his beliefs.

Better watch out. No sarcasm is allowed in this thread.

 

[Ajidica]

Isn't jihad an important part of Islam?

I can't see religion surviving the next couple hundred years without becoming more & more radical.

There are two primary types of jihad (struggle) in Islam:
1) The Greater Jihad; which represents the personal, internal struggle for faith.
2) The Lesser Jihad; which is the external struggle for faith against external pressures.
Out of the Lesser Jihad comes the concept of a violent, military response to attempts to defend Islam from external pressure. Traditional Islamic jurisprudence has some very strict rules and customs attached to it; such as how it is to be practices and what to do during a jihad. As far as I am aware, the overwhelming number of Islamic scholars and religious leaders do not consider the 'jihads' going on now to be following Islamic tradition.

 

[brennan]

I'm sure knowing that will be of great comfort to the people having their heads sawn off by ISIS.

 

[Antilogic]

Gotta love how there appear to be multiple interpretations of Sam Harris' texts written in modern English for a broad audience, but man, those millenium-plus year old second-hand texts translated from old foreign languages. There's only one possible interpretation. And it probably means they want to kill you or something.

 

[brennan]

Sarcasm works better when it isn't based upon a strawman.

 

[Antilogic]

Sarcasm works better when it isn't based upon a strawman.

It wasn't directed at you. Probably should have quoted #179.

 

[brennan]

I don't think anyone is claiming that the only possible/correct way to be a Muslim is to join the Jihad. Except the Jihadis.

My position is that the Jihadists really do believe that and that they feel this way because firstly they see the reality of global realpolitic as one involving a war on Islam and secondly because their divinely inspired *cough* text leads them to act in response to that perceived reality in ways that leave most people (Muslim or otherwise) gagging in horror. Supplementary to this I think that religions that claim to be based around the moral ponderings of medieval warlords and ancient genocides need to take responsibility for the contents of their holy books. Preferably by disowning and deleting all the stuff that condones rape, slavery, murder, war and genocide. On which count Islam is not necessarily the worst offender, just the most immediate problem.

 

[classical_hero]

Undermine extremist recruitment by stopping:

Drone strikes.
Support for dictators.
Rendition and torture.
Phony wars.

There's lots of reasons why these people think they are at war. Remove that pillar to their rationale.

This has been going on and of for well over 1400 year and it will not stop or start because of our actions. Ever since Mohammed died ther has been a split in Islam between the shi'as and the sunnis. Just pray that you don't ever become under the rule of Islam.

 

[Narz]

This is a small selection of verses inciting violence against unbelievers among Muslims. It is not an exhaustive list - there are more of them in the Quran and I haven't even mentioned the Hadith. Jihad and the fight against unbelievers is one of the central messages of Islamic scripture.

"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And disbelief or unrest is worse than killing (...)
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more disbelief..."
Quran (2:191-193)

"Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
Quran (2:244)

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Quran (2:216)

"As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Quran (3:56)

"Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
Quran (4:74)

"Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
Quran (4:76)

"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Quran (4:89)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
Quran (5:33)

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Quran (8:12)

"O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."
Quran (8:39)

"And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
Quran (8:59-60)

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them"
Quran (9:5)

"Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."
Quran (9:14)

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Quran (9:29)

"O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."
Quran (9:123)

"And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction."
Quran (17:16)

"Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..."
Quran (25:52)

"If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."
Quran (33:60-62)

"Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks..."
Quran (47:3-4)

"Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"
Quran (61:4)

"He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist."
Quran (61:9)

"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."
Quran (66:9)

Thats a lot of incitations to violence. I can't see how "religion of peace" could be anything but PR. And its not like the believers didn't take these admonishions seriously considering the history of the spread of Islam.

I guess Islam's not a problem if you're not a real hardcore Muslim, kind of like religion in general isn't a problem if you're some lukewarm Unitarian Universalist, but if you throw out the bad parts & only keep the nicey-nice sounding ones can you really call yourself a believer?

I don't think anyone is claiming that the only possible/correct way to be a Muslim is to join the Jihad. Except the Jihadis.

Thats an interesting question, maybe one worthy of its own thread. How much of a religion can one ignore and still consider oneself a member of that religion?

 

[brennan]

Dammit CH I was hoping you wouldn't show up. Now I have to retract the first sentence in my last post.

 

[Funky]

If the West (out of greed and might is right) occupies whole regions and doesnt allow free developments of respective countries but instead supports its puppets in goverments which block natural course of self-development of these countries all for its business interest and to keep its superiority and control instead of proper friendly equal relations it deserves what it gets. Suppression is never without opposing reaction.

Babble. Which "whole regions" in the Muslim world is the West occupying? Where has the West suppressed free development? If anything, the West is interested in sane partners and economical collaborators in the region. Have there been mistakes and missteps in Western history? Of course,many. The Vietnam War was one of these mistakes. Are the Vietnamese committing acts of terror on a daily basis and mistreating their women?

Christianity had their scientist and witch burning, their crusades

As if the few thousand witches burnt over a couple of centuries is anywhere close to how Muslim women are suffering today by the hundreds of millions. As if the crusades weren't a justified response to centuries of brutal jihad in which Islam expanded from Spain to India, from Somalia to Afghanistan, costing an estimated 200 million lives.

The society when allowed free course of development gets rid of the unhealthy, unprogressive and ******ing elements.

Do you know what would allow Middle Eastern societies free course of development?Getting rid of the unhealthy, unprogressive, ******ing elements of Islam. Getting rid of sharia for starters. Allowing women to participate in public life. Replacing theocracy by democracy. Introducing freedom of speech. Becoming secular, modern societies.

This natural development seems to be blocked in muslim countries also becouse for the West its easier to control the poor, weak and divided.

The poor and the weak? Is this really your perception of Saudi Arabia? Iran? Egypt? Kuwait? Turkey? And could you elaborate on how the West is "controlling" these nations?

What I think you speak of when you say "natural development", is essentially adopting liberal principles. If you believe that liberal principles are generally beneficial for societies, which I totally agree with, you should be opposed to Islam too. There is currently no other virulent ideology which is as diametrically opposed to liberal values as mainstream Islam.

I just have to say, I am really baffled by this obsession of blaming the West for everything bad that happens in the world, and I don't only mean you. I mean, I was a student once too, I know what it's like to be surrounded and influenced by so-called progressive ideas. But this uncritical West-bashing and exculpation of everyone else, while dismissing any facts that don't fit the agenda, not to speak of the smearing of anyone who holds a dissenting opinion, is intellectually obscene.
And because I expect the SJWs to jump on this quote and accuse me of exhibiting the same behaviour, I'll pre-emptively ask you guys to provide the facts which refute my position that have escaped my attention. I mean, I'd really like to be wrong on this issue, it would save me a lot of time and worries.

 

[Kaitzilla]

When a religion promises those who die fighting: (martyrs?)

1) Automatically go to heaven, bypassing the judgment phase
2) Gain the greatest possible heavenly rewards
3) Gain the closest seat to God

I can safely predict the consequences until the first reformation happens in that religion.