[RD] Do 'woke' films go broke? (from LGBTQ news)

[Zardnaar]

i've only seen starship troopers. so short note on that

calling that anti-woke would be missing the point entirely, and the movie is both a bit subtle and not at all

however, it's not that simple

it actively indulges in the fascist fantasy specifically to embody how such a world and how its propaganda can draw you in with manipulation and excitement. but look just past the immediate surface level and it's an absurd dystopia. you get drawn in killing the Great Other and then Barney shows up in an ss uniform. the point so cut & dry that many people feel it's way too blunt.

now that said; there's a clear point and a movie's function. it succeeded in its parody a little too well, to put it simply. i know back in the day people actually didn't think beyond the basic surface level subtext and often just thought it a dumb alien shooty movie, even if exciting (this says a lot about the "end of history" 90s). and whatever the very obvious point, it succeeded so much in what it tried to be that it has been coopted by assorted alt-right groups online, who swear by it and note, at the same time, that it's not fascist at all, guys (because they know embracing something fascist and calling it fascist is still a losing battle). i was in a starship troopers meme group for a bit and jumped ship very quickly because of what was happening. so the movie very clearly delineates fascist thinking in our world, and how charming it can be. but functionally because it succeeds like that it is used for far right propaganda; they understand the just-below-the-surface rampant fascism and they like that.

i love the movie, but there's a real danger in making fascism sexy, even when you're making a point about how sexy fascism lures us in.

so text would be (sigh) "woke", whatever that means. but authors don't control the usage of texts, or whenever readers agree with the villain. see eg thanos. and the question then becomes "is a movie anti-woke if it's often used as such?"

even stuff like american history x is coopted this way. lindsay ellis made a pretty good video where she talked about springtime for hitler, where she pointed out that a lot of sexy-fascism-deconstruction movies have been coopted by the far right - but they can never coopt can-can gay goosestep hitler.

I like that movie. It was also a flop originally on release.

It's become an internet favorite since

 

[Gorbles]

It was also a flop originally on release.

So why this focus on flops on release due to "woke" reasons?

 

[Zardnaar]

So why this focus on flops on release due to "woke" reasons?

Because it's information we have and the point of the thread?

 

[Broken_Erika]

His other movies, Robocop and Total Recall were good.

 

[Gorbles]

Because it's information we have and the point of the thread?

But the information we have is stopping at "flop". It's very circular. Things are bad because they're woke, except all these things that were either bad at the time or still are.

This is why folks have written all sorts of involved responses that you've mostly ignored (or replied to with a singular reductive comment).

Just seems like a lot of confirmation bias to me.

 

[Zardnaar]

His other movies, Robocop and Total Recall were good.

I like his movies generally.

At the time I watch Starship troopers it was a dystopia pew pew sci fi movie bad acting kinda fun.

But the information we have is stopping at "flop". It's very circular. Things are bad because they're woke, except all these things that were either bad at the time or still are.

This is why folks have written all sorts of involved responses that you've mostly ignored (or replied to with a singular reductive comment).

Just seems like a lot of confirmation bias to me.

If you like we can look at sone upcoming movies. Can probably make so decent predictions based on what we know.

Revisit once they're released.

You can also look at sone hit movies recently. Big ones are John Wick, Mario, Top Gun Maverik, Guardians of Galaxy. Nobe are overly woke in tone are they?

 

[Gorbles]

Nobe are overly woke in tone are they?

Guardians of the Galaxy? Part of what folks who criticise "woke" stuff as the "M-She-U"?

You sure about that?

 

[EnglishEdward]

I liked Starship Troopers, I had previously read the book.

 

[Zardnaar]

Guardians of the Galaxy? Part of what folks who criticise "woke" stuff as the "M-She-U"?

You sure about that?

I haven't seen tge third one but the first two weren't overly woke in tone.

I liked Starship Troopers, I had previously read the book.

Haven't read the book I've heard the movie was a satire of the book but idk.

 

[Gorbles]

I haven't seen tge third one but the first two weren't overly woke in tone.

And this is why it's a useless word that means pretty much nothing!

 

[EnglishEdward]

Haven't read the book I've heard the movie was a satire of the book but idk.

Not really, in my opinion the movie very much followed the book.

The follow up movie, for which there was no book to follow, was appalling.

 

[Angst]

Haven't read the book I've heard the movie was a satire of the book but idk.

sidenote on this, now that the book has been brought up. the book is really god damn malicious and sometimes absurd. it's basically a political manuscript often argued in dialogue and of course science fiction (the dialogue-based arguments is similar to what was done back with the greeks, with characters outlining their position for the text to reach an endpoint; where the book was going with its arguments). infamously, verhoeven only read a tiny bit of it and immediately clocked it as dangerous. then he made the movie as a parody of the book (and a warning about it), basically taking the same plot points and arguments, but framing them as "you know, this is bad actually"

from what i can tell, as a book, it's quite well written and it's obvious why it has kind of become a classic. but the goal of the book, in society, is somewhat more tenuous in reception at this point. i throughoughly disagree with EnglishEdward here. yes, the book has pretty much the exact same plot points (some things were changed, but not necessarily things of much importance imo), but the framing is completely different, instead intended to deconstruct what the book was trying to say

the book has kind of a roman ideal of how you're allowed to participate in democracy (similar to the movie; you only get to vote if you've served the army; for the romans, you got land for serving in the army). it's also incredibly authoritarian in regards to the ideals of societal structure and punishment (it literally envisioned that the original world government collapsed because like parents didn't spank their kids >_>); violence, punishment and discipline is core to what makes a succesful society in the books eyes; and you only get to participate (vote) after you've submitted yourself to such an order, specifically through the military. the point of the book is that all of this authoritarianism is necessary to destroy the Great Other, the imaginary bugs humanity was fighting; but they were a thinly veiled allegory for the chinese.

"would you like to know more?"

 

[Zardnaar]

And this is why it's a useless word that means pretty much nothing!

You jeep splitting hairs over tgat.

Phase 1-3 weren't overly woke except maybe towards the end but even then most people coukd go and see them and enjoy them. Mostly Black Panther and Captain Marvel are the common ones.

BP was good Marvel wasn't the worst phase 1-3 movie.

Blade for example gas a black lead isn't woke in tone.

Have you seen Eternals?

 

[Gorbles]

You jeep splitting hairs over tgat.

What hairs am I splitting? The whole topic is "woke films", isn't it?

If "woke" means "what Zardnaar personally thinks is woke", it's very different to "woke" meaning "what a large amount of angry nerds online think is woke". People will call James Gunn's films woke because of his own politics. People will call his films woke because he's taken over DC and the fandom over there is mad at him about that. People will, people can, people do.

Have you seen Eternals?

I've seen every MCU movie and TV show, I'm a sucker for them.

Nothing here is up for debate unless you actually want it to be. Accusing people of splitting hairs because you don't like the argument isn't going to go very far.

Tell me. If we're meant to be able to divorce an actor or actress from their acting (as I'm repeatedly told every time an A-lister gets revealed as a creep, abuser, or worse) . . . why can we not separate something like Brie Larson's personal IRL opinions from her movie? Why is that suddenly a problem?

All I want is consistency. Pick a lane and stick in it. But if you're going to start objecting to some opinions made by actors and actresses, but not all, all that is is personal bias deciding whether you like something or not. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's natural. But it makes this fuss about "woke" all the more contrived.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Have checked wiki.

It was the first I liked, and the third I hated.

 

[Zardnaar]

What hairs am I splitting? The whole topic is "woke films", isn't it?

If "woke" means "what Zardnaar personally thinks is woke", it's very different to "woke" meaning "what a large amount of angry nerds online think is woke". People will call James Gunn's films woke because of his own politics. People will call his films woke because he's taken over DC and the fandom over there is mad at him about that. People will, people can, people do.

I've seen every MCU movie and TV show, I'm a sucker for them.

Nothing here is up for debate unless you actually want it to be. Accusing people of splitting hairs because you don't like the argument isn't going to go very far.

Tell me. If we're meant to be able to divorce an actor or actress from their acting (as I'm repeatedly told every time an A-lister gets revealed as a creep, abuser, or worse) . . . why can we not separate something like Brie Larson's personal IRL opinions from her movie? Why is that suddenly a problem?

All I want is consistency. Pick a lane and stick in it. But if you're going to start objecting to some opinions made by actors and actresses, but not all, all that is is personal bias deciding whether you like something or not. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's natural. But it makes this fuss about "woke" all the more contrived.

Think we mire ir less established what counts as woke varies from person to person?. I'm not and MCU fan (or superheroes in general) but watched most of phase 1-3 on Disney+.

I gave up after Eternals and Loki. Crap writing.

I would argue Eternals was to woke and they marketed as such.

The bigger problem though I think they added to many characters all at once and used cardboard cut out characters and then claimed you're am "ist" if you don't like it.

Compared with Avengers thst was a team up of established characters who got their own movies.

I d9nt think The Marvels is going to ro tgat well comparatively as it's not an appetizer for the conclusion if a decade long saga (love or hate it) and it has other issues as well.

Can you with a straight face claim the MCU movies are as good as they were or the shows don't have a lot if issues?

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Ahsoka character (star wars)

Ahsoka Tano have had impressive development. Starting out in a poorly reviewed movie as an inserted character to a story already made in which she never existed in, to becoming like in my opinion probably the best star wars character and having some of the best stories, like Siege of Mandalore is perhaps the best Star Wars ever gotten to in which she is the main character.

In most ways she get to act like any of the male main jedi characters such as Luke and Anakin, being from what I've read the first film/series major female jedi (been others before in books and games), perhaps also the first really major/main alien character. Also like Anakin/Luke she is potrayed as some sort of prodigy, being 14 to 17 in the Clone wars series, by siege of mandalore I think she is still younger than like Anakin in attack of the Clones, yet seems to probably be his superior in overall ability.

Like it is very impressive they managed to get an inserted and early on from my understanding hated character whose overall ability at her age make her look perhaps superior to the older and more established characters.

Spoiler The clone wars :

She got to defeat and capture Maul in a one vs one duel at just age of 17 in the clone wars, something the famous Obi Wan failed at, making her perhaps the youngest jedi character in Star Wars that defeated a sith lord or equivalent and also shown at even younger age being able to atleast some degree keep up with the strong villians in the series who pose a serious challenge even for Obi Wan and Anakin. Not only is her combat powress extreamly impressive (like I've read the writers of Rebels series with adult Ahsoka considered her inside the top 3-4 strongest jedi combatant of all time who they felt could only be matched blow for blow by Vader and Sidious (the two strongest sith lords of all time and that she was the top cotender at that time in an era with still Obi Wan, Maul and Yoda being alive amongst other), like she even get to fight against both Vader and Sidious and survive (Obi Wan for example was not allowed to meet Sidious when he was around rebel Ahsokas age), but she is also potrayed as being very intelligent at just like age 14 she invented a tactic who allowed her to defeat 6 separatist star destroyers with her only one and seems to be able to see the decline of republic and jedi order significantly earlier than even Yoda. She is also mentally really strong, expelled from the jedi order and nearly exectued due to betrayal of one of her friends and once that is exposed and she is allowed to return to the jedi order she is shown to have the maturity and courrage to leave and unlike her master Anakin or Count Doku or probably other former jedi, she don't fall to the dark side, if anything she maybe move more towards the light and probably at age 16 did not have much more to learn from the jedi order, maybe already starting to surpass the council masters who did not trust her, yet in the end she outlives all of them. She also manage to survive order 66 while being locked inside a crashing star destroyer with clones she refuse to kill. As an adult she seems to had a significantly more active role as a spy than like Obi Wan and Yoda who largely stayed in exil to train Luke and yet out of those 3, she was the only one to survive to the end of the empire, meaning she survived both the clone wars and galatic civil war.

Not sure exactly what Woke means and thus exactly how that would tie into Ahsoka Tano, maybe she being an inserted main female alien jedi character in film/series that is shown to be close to the talent level of like the chosen one Anakin Skywalker and his son and perhaps beyond the talent level of pretty much everyone else (which could include Obi Wan, Count Doku and pretty much all other jedi characters), a teenager who put jedi masters to shame. Yet for all of this she seems to be one of the most beloved characters of all of star wars due to her story and character development over many-many hours.

Seems like a very successful character to me.

 

[Gorbles]

Think we mire ir less established what counts as woke varies from person to person?

Therefore, it literally means nothing.

Is American History X "woke"? Is Legally Blonde "woke"?

This weird insistence that "forcing an agenda" is somehow unique to progressive stories is weird. American History X has a pretty clear agenda. It's really very blunt with it. Transparently so. Would you say this means it's "woke"?

I gave up after Eternals and Loki. Crap writing.

I'd argue not many people agree with you r.e. Loki.

then claimed you're am "ist" if you don't like it.

They did? Where?

Because there are absolutely racists and sexists who don't like it when white dudes aren't in charge. These exist. They're not ficticious. They're real people. Comics have dealt with them for years. Movies based on the comics aren't going to be an exception.

But that doesn't mean you're automatically one of them for not liking the movie. So I'd like to know who told you this was the case.

Can you with a straight face claim the MCU movies are as good as they were or the shows don't have a lot if issues?

Why would I claim that? I've watched both Iron Man 2 and Thor: The Dark World. More than once, in both cases.

Not really much "wokeness" in either of them, but they're pretty famously remembered as being terrible (even if I still like IM2, because I'm biased for anything around Iron Man).

 

[Zardnaar]

Ahsoka Tano have had impressive development. Starting out in a poorly reviewed movie as an inserted character to a story already made in which she never existed in, to becoming like in my opinion probably the best star wars character and having some of the best stories, like Siege of Mandalore is perhaps the best Star Wars ever gotten to in which she is the main character.

In most ways she get to act like any of the male main jedi characters such as Luke and Anakin, being from what I've read the first film/series major female jedi (been others before in books and games), perhaps also the first really major/main alien character. Also like Anakin/Luke she is potrayed as some sort of prodigy, being 14 to 17 in the Clone wars series, by siege of mandalore I think she is still younger than like Anakin in attack of the Clones, yet seems to probably be his superior in overall ability.

Like it is very impressive they managed to get an inserted and early on from my understanding hated character whose overall ability at her age make her look perhaps superior to the older and more established characters.

Spoiler The clone wars :

She got to defeat and capture Maul in a one vs one duel at just age of 17 in the clone wars, something the famous Obi Wan failed at, making her perhaps the youngest jedi character in Star Wars that defeated a sith lord or equivalent and also shown at even younger age being able to atleast some degree keep up with the strong villians in the series who pose a serious challenge even for Obi Wan and Anakin. Not only is her combat powress extreamly impressive (like I've read the writers of Rebels series with adult Ahsoka considered her inside the top 3-4 strongest jedi combatant of all time who they felt could only be matched blow for blow by Vader and Sidious (the two strongest sith lords of all time and that she was the top cotender at that time in an era with still Obi Wan, Maul and Yoda being alive amongst other), like she even get to fight against both Vader and Sidious and survive (Obi Wan for example was not allowed to meet Sidious when he was around rebel Ahsokas age), but she is also potrayed as being very intelligent at just like age 14 she invented a tactic who allowed her to defeat 6 separatist star destroyers with her only one and seems to be able to see the decline of republic and jedi order significantly earlier than even Yoda. She is also mentally really strong, expelled from the jedi order and nearly exectued due to betrayal of one of her friends and once that is exposed and she is allowed to return to the jedi order she is shown to have the maturity and courrage to leave and unlike her master Anakin or Count Doku or probably other former jedi, she don't fall to the dark side, if anything she maybe move more towards the light and probably at age 16 did not have much more to learn from the jedi order, maybe already starting to surpass the council masters who did not trust her, yet in the end she outlives all of them. She also manage to survive order 66 while being locked inside a crashing star destroyer with clones she refuse to kill. As an adult she seems to had a significantly more active role as a spy than like Obi Wan and Yoda who largely stayed in exil to train Luke and yet out of those 3, she was the only one to survive to the end of the empire, meaning she survived both the clone wars and galatic civil war.

Not sure exactly what Woke means and thus exactly how that would tie into Ahsoka Tano, maybe she being an inserted main female alien jedi character in film/series that is shown to be close to the talent level of like the chosen one Anakin Skywalker and his son and perhaps beyond the talent level of pretty much everyone else (which could include Obi Wan, Count Doku and pretty much all other jedi characters), a teenager who put jedi masters to shame. Yet for all of this she seems to be one of the most beloved characters of all of star wars due to her story and character development over many-many hours.

Seems like a very successful character to me.

Yeah Ahsoja was crap early on but they turned her and Anakin around in follow up material. Movie Anakin was crap (no fault to the actor) but Clone Wars cartoon turned it around.

Similar process with Ahsoka. She had Jedi training though so a 14 year old Jedi Padawan busting out lightsabers etc was fine she (like Anakin) was annoying early on.

Therefore, it literally means nothing.

Is American History X "woke"? Is Legally Blonde "woke"?

This weird insistence that "forcing an agenda" is somehow unique to progressive stories is weird. American History X has a pretty clear agenda. It's really very blunt with it. Transparently so. Would you say this means it's "woke"?

I'd argue not many people agree with you r.e. Loki.

They did? Where?

Because there are absolutely racists and sexists who don't like it when white dudes aren't in charge. These exist. They're not ficticious. They're real people. Comics have dealt with them for years. Movies based on the comics aren't going to be an exception.

But that doesn't mean you're automatically one of them for not liking the movie. So I'd like to know who told you this was the case.

Why would I claim that? I've watched both Iron Man 2 and Thor: The Dark World. More than once, in both cases.

Not really much "wokeness" in either of them, but they're pretty famously remembered as being terrible (even if I still like IM2, because I'm biased for anything around Iron Man).

I didn't think they were terrible but they're some of the worst of the MCU movies.

Loki was the best of the first of 3 shows but kind of a low bar.

If a frothing at the mouth MAGA type throws around Woke you vasically know what to expect.

If a normal person or liberal uses it in regards to a movie you more or less know what to expect from a movie.

In both cases you know what they're talking about based on the context of how they're using it.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Ahsoka's story seems very much one about growth, maybe fitting given she being a teenager, she is often seen failling, yet learns and come back stronger and succeeds while other characters are perhaps seen stagnating and reaching a point in which when they fail, they fail hard.