ALC Game #26: Willem van Oranje/Dutch

[Sian]

yeah ... war doesn't look that profitable in near future ... build up your land and send some workboats (or galleys) out to explore those islands around you (both south, west and north) for building cities, which would be able to carry themselves quite decently from the get go due to GLH-empowered intercontinental trading

 

[Dreylin]

LP,
Just a quick question for you: you write "And we know for sure that at least two of the AI's didn't get Writing before us, so that gives us some hope."

Could you explain how you know this? Thanks!

Simple: the turn before you discover Writing, you do a round of the AIs. Any of them which have the option of signing Open Borders have Writing, any where there's no option don't.

 

[azzaman333]

Raze the Barb city and resettle.

Finish settling the bit of land between proper Dutch land and conquered English-Dutch land.

Since you have Great Lighthouse, start exploring/settling those off-shore islands.

I think it's in your best interest to leave Mao alone and let him establish a nice border with you while maxing out land to the west and the off-shore lands.

I agree with all of this, but

I can't think your rash young Greek Friend will like Mao too much, let the agressive/protective leaders butcher each other for a while.

IIRC, Mao and Alex are generally fairly friendly.

However, Alex does have Gandhi right next to him, who he generally will hate. I'd think about giving him some metal to encourage him to attack Gandhi.

As far as techs I like hitting Compass earlier than later for the extra trade-route yield. You impressed us all getting that wonder, leverage it for all it's worth. Also, trade-route yields are much more lucrative during peaceful times, so play nice with the Greeks and CHinese (and the Babylonians/Indians).

Finally, you may want to adopt the Judaist faith to appease Mao for a bit.

I also agree with this.

 

[Sobric]

Barb city will auto-raze so I don't think you have much option. I would have suggested razing it anyway.

I think peaceful expansion in your current lands and the islands is the best choice, like mad suggested, since Mao is protective. I would consider a war with elephants & catas, so perhaps head for construction (or trade for it!).

I'm rubbish with diplomacy, but is it a good idea to make buddies with Alex and try and use him as an attack dog against everyone else? If you can convince him to war with Mao then you could dogpile him and take his lands. OTOH you don't have a Hindu city yet so that will be hard.

What about great people? Pop a GP for a shrine (if there isn't one already) perhaps?

 

[DMOC]

You should probably build a workboat to start exploring those lands to the west of London.

Good job so far.

 

[TM Moot]

also send a workboat South of Amsterdam, that looks like prime Real Estate...

 

[Fluxx]

Good job!!

Raze barb city/resettle.
Plant 2 more cities inbetween your lands.
South of Amsterdam seems to be a good island/mainland.
Play more!
Win!

 

[DampRain]

Raze it! Although would you consider maybe turning it into your capital? Since your current capital seems more a production (plus if you are settling there, it might as well become HE city).

 

[tycoonist]

Raze it! Although would you consider maybe turning it into your capital? Since your current capital seems more a production (plus if you are settling there, it might as well become HE city).

bureaucracy powers production as well, and i'd just use it to pump out phants.

 

[DampRain]

Bureau does power production well, but given that he can build HE in amsterdam, that 50% would be better off going into research .

 

[tycoonist]

Bureau does power production well, but given that he can build HE in amsterdam, that 50% would be better off going into research .

or he could just pump out 1 turn jumbos...

 

[Sisiutil]

Good work this round! I agree with razing that barb city and taking the better location; Angle was, fortunately, better located, so you made the right decision to keep it. It's also a good city to block your remaining rivals. Amsterdam should become your Heroic Epic city, London the GP farm, Utrecht a commerce city. You'll probably want to move the capital just before bureaucracy to a better commerce site, one that's central to your empire. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, but you should start thinking about it.

With 14 (!) water tiles, I agree that London was perfect for the Moai Statues. Just be warned that if you make it the GP farm as I suggested, you may get some pollution of your GPP if you're trying to generate something other than a Great Prophet.

As for techs, that's a tough call, because you'll want to first research Alphabet and see what you glean from the round of tech trading that will no doubt ensue. Given that you're at 0% research, I'd say that researching/tech trading in the direction of Code of Laws and Currency makes the most sense.

 

[EmperorFool]

Why did you keep Nottingham? I would have thought that it would be much better 3E where it can get both the Rice and Fish and not compete so much with York. I don't recall seeing any discussion about it before your report, yet keeping it seemed like a non-event.

 

[DampRain]

Jumbos cost 60 hammers.

Amsterdam currently has 24 hammer production + 6 excess food. You could get 1 jumbo a turn anyway without bureau with HE (due overflow, + 6 excess food put into hammers through slavery or workshops). 10 jumbos in 10 turn s= 600 hammers.
480 hammers from working. 120 from 2 people whipped every 10 turns. So bureau only really serves to give you gold from overflow, and not much at that. Or you go at 3 workshops on plains land gives the extra 6 base hammers to spam your jumbos. Or you could just have 8 jumbos instead of 10 in 10 turns (assumign that + 6 food disappears magically, the heck?)

Also I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to just spam jumbos when AI probably has copper/iron and puts out 35 hammer counters. In which case even if he can't convert the 6 food into hammers (at a decent rate), over flow from axes or any other non jumbo unit still produces sufficient hammers to average 1 unit a turn.

Does he also have HBR? That would be deterrent if he doesn't. Also Amsterdam will be producing 5 xp units out the gate for the non mounted, which his other cities wont be able to achieve, if he really needs jumbos, produced elsewhere (with stable) produces a higher quality of troops, since his cats + melee will be at lvl 2 as wel, not just jumbos.

On a side point, isn't this almost moot? Given that if you have CS you can achieve machinery very quickly for mace men? Although I'll agree they will be good for cover against other mounted units for a while. Although you could argue 1 maceman per turn, but attacking is... more difficult in medieval . It comes down to 25% more hammers in one city, or 50% more commerce in another.

My main arguement is gain in research >>> gain in hammer power.

 

[Kev]

I am surprised you did not take the time to get a workboat out somewhere to check out some things. As mentioned, the land south of Amsterdam looks promising, and setting up a satellite city off-continent can be quite helpful. A galley can get there it would seem, so perhaps just building a galley would be the better choice.

I agree with what seems to be the consensus to raze the newly-founded barb city (which will auto-raze) and make your own.

Like others, I also am wondering why you kept Nottingham - it could not have all that much (if anything) regarding infrastructure and it is a bit of a distance from the capital. Also, it doesn't seem that the area was in real danger of AI poaching, so you could have razed it and built a better-placed city later.

Seems you are going through bouts of 0% science then 100% science. Can you expound on this as a strategy? Were you waiting for libraries to go up after writing to then pump 100% science?

 

[DampRain]

Seems you are going through bouts of 0% science then 100% science. Can you expound on this as a strategy? Were you waiting for libraries to go up after writing to then pump 100% science?

This is called binary research. Yes it is waiting for libraries to go up after writing. You can search a thread for it called "micro is alive" or something like that. Apart from the obvious 25% bonus, the thread expounds on some other advantages of it.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Looks like there's a general consensus for razing and resettling the barb city. In the bigger picture, most people seem to agree that war with Mao or Alex is not in our interests right now. Rather, expanding overseas would be very beneficial with the Great Lighthouse.

Maybe we could also try to bribe Alex into a war with Mao once we get Alphabet? That would keep those two occupied for a long while. Also, the point has been made that we might want to switch to Judaism to keep Mao happy, which I agree with.

first of all, what time is it over there? If I calculate correctly(and I might just not) it's about 6.50 am xD

Not quite... it was about 5.20am. Still fairly late. I have some weird hours.

2) I don't know, I'd say compass usually is nice trading bait

Could be. Compass would be somewhat useful for us with the Great Lighthouse too. Aesthetics is another tech that's good for trade value, although I can't see us wanting to build any of those wonders without marble. (Maybe we could make a shot at the Great Library? It'd be slow going though, and might not be worth the trouble.)

LP,
Just a quick question for you: you write "And we know for sure that at least two of the AI's didn't get Writing before us, so that gives us some hope."

Could you explain how you know this? Thanks!

As Dreylin says, you check the diplomacy screens one turn before you get Writing, and note down who has and hasn't got the option to sign Open Borders yet. Those who can have Writing; those who cannot, do not.

(Actually I found that the BUG mod made this easier, because it notified me on the turn when any nation could sign open borders. Nice work guys! Any possibility of getting notifications when an AI comes up with a new resource to trade? That would be handy, and save me checking the resources tab every turn. )

As far as techs I like hitting Compass earlier than later for the extra trade-route yield. You impressed us all getting that wonder, leverage it for all it's worth. Also, trade-route yields are much more lucrative during peaceful times, so play nice with the Greeks and CHinese (and the Babylonians/Indians).

Indeed, the trade routes from Harbors will be nice. Although, the extra trade routes are nice enough in themselves, and Harbors will take a while to build (especially in newly founded island cities). So I'm not sure I'd quite prioritize Compass as the most important tech right now; however, it's certainly up there on the "techs to get" list.

Finally, you may want to adopt the Judaist faith to appease Mao for a bit.

Very good point. We'll want to spread Judaism to Amsterdam first though, since otherwise we'll cause needless unhappiness. And that will require a Monastery in one of our western cities.

Barb city will auto-raze so I don't think you have much option. I would have suggested razing it anyway.

Well, keeping the barb city would imply waiting for it to grow to size 2 so it wouldn't auto-raze. But that would take quite a while, so I'm in favour of razing the city.

I think peaceful expansion in your current lands and the islands is the best choice, like mad suggested, since Mao is protective. I would consider a war with elephants & catas, so perhaps head for construction (or trade for it!).

Could be a possibility, although I'd be more confident in such a war succeeding if we waited for Macemen instead. Anyway, we'll just have to see where the AI's are at tech-wise when we get Alphabet.

I'm rubbish with diplomacy, but is it a good idea to make buddies with Alex and try and use him as an attack dog against everyone else? If you can convince him to war with Mao then you could dogpile him and take his lands. OTOH you don't have a Hindu city yet so that will be hard.

Last time I checked, Alex was already happy to war with Mao even without any religious bonuses with us. That needs to be checked though.

What about great people? Pop a GP for a shrine (if there isn't one already) perhaps?

A Great Prophet for a shrine would certainly be handy. Only problem is that Amsterdam is going to pop out a Great Merchant next. Only possibility to get a GP out first would seem to be to build 2 Temples in London, and hire 2 Priests. It might be worth doing this though, considering the benefits of owning a shrine of an early religion.

Raze it! Although would you consider maybe turning it into your capital? Since your current capital seems more a production (plus if you are settling there, it might as well become HE city).

I actually quite like having a fierce production centre for the Bureaucracy bonus. I wouldn't consider moving the capital until the alternative location was set up decently (enough population, improvements, etc to justify the move).

Good work this round! I agree with razing that barb city and taking the better location; Angle was, fortunately, better located, so you made the right decision to keep it. It's also a good city to block your remaining rivals. Amsterdam should become your Heroic Epic city, London the GP farm, Utrecht a commerce city. You'll probably want to move the capital just before bureaucracy to a better commerce site, one that's central to your empire. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, but you should start thinking about it.

I agree with the HE/GP/commerce city suggestions. Once again, I'm not so sure that moving the capital straight away when we get CS will be the best move - but yeah, we'll see when the time comes.

With 14 (!) water tiles, I agree that London was perfect for the Moai Statues. Just be warned that if you make it the GP farm as I suggested, you may get some pollution of your GPP if you're trying to generate something other than a Great Prophet.

Yeah, that's a good point. Later down the line I'll probably be building some world wonders in London, which will help to focus Great Person points into the areas we want.

As for techs, that's a tough call, because you'll want to first research Alphabet and see what you glean from the round of tech trading that will no doubt ensue. Given that you're at 0% research, I'd say that researching/tech trading in the direction of Code of Laws and Currency makes the most sense.

Code of Laws and Currency certainly make a lot of sense. It's a tough call on which would be better - Currency gives a more immediate boost, but COL is on the way to CS. I think probably a Maths -> Currency -> COL tech path would be fairly decent - Maths is a needed tech anyway, and helps to speed up our research on Currency.

Why did you keep Nottingham? I would have thought that it would be much better 3E where it can get both the Rice and Fish and not compete so much with York. I don't recall seeing any discussion about it before your report, yet keeping it seemed like a non-event.

I'm intending on founding an extra city to get the Fish near Nottingham. Sure, Nottingham wasn't located in the best place, but it's still a free city when we have no Settler immediately available in the area. And I'm inclined to take any free cities I can get, as long as they don't completely crash my economy. (You can always recover later, after all.)

Jumbos cost 60 hammers.

No, they cost 90 on Epic speed.

480 hammers from working. 120 from 2 people whipped every 10 turns. So bureau only really serves to give you gold from overflow, and not much at that.

Erm... no, not at all. Something is very odd with your calculation. Bureaucracy means that we'll build 3 units in the time it would take us to build 2 units without it. I don't quite know what you're on about with gold from overflow, since our overflow hammers are going to be going back into new units. Overflow gold would only apply to hammers over 2 times the cost of the unit (ie 180+ hammers), which we're not going to get in one turn while building War Elephants.

Or you go at 3 workshops on plains land gives the extra 6 base hammers to spam your jumbos.

But that requires 3 extra happy citizens. And besides, Bureaucracy would turn those 6 extra hammers into 9 extra hammers. You're not making a very compelling argument in my mind.

On a side point, isn't this almost moot? Given that if you have CS you can achieve machinery very quickly for mace men? Although I'll agree they will be good for cover against other mounted units for a while. Although you could argue 1 maceman per turn, but attacking is... more difficult in medieval . It comes down to 25% more hammers in one city, or 50% more commerce in another.

I still don't understand why you claim it's 25% more hammers in one city. Bureaucracy provides a 50% hammer boost.

My main arguement is gain in research >>> gain in hammer power.

In our present situation, I'd agree. There are certainly situations where the opposite is true, however (for instance, later in the game or in preparation for a big war).

 

[Lord Parkin]

I am surprised you did not take the time to get a workboat out somewhere to check out some things. As mentioned, the land south of Amsterdam looks promising, and setting up a satellite city off-continent can be quite helpful. A galley can get there it would seem, so perhaps just building a galley would be the better choice.

Yeah, I'll be building a Galley for exploration soon. I was concentrating on taking Liz's city and the barbarian city, so didn't have much time for building an exploratory naval unit before.

Like others, I also am wondering why you kept Nottingham - it could not have all that much (if anything) regarding infrastructure and it is a bit of a distance from the capital. Also, it doesn't seem that the area was in real danger of AI poaching, so you could have razed it and built a better-placed city later.

Yeah, I guess so. Like I said before, I simply like keeping cities when I have the choice, as long as they don't crash the economy and don't prevent the settling of any other nice locations. But I guess I shouldn't have assumed that everyone else would agree to keep Nottingham, so I should have thought to bring up that point for discussion. Sorry about that.

This is called binary research. Yes it is waiting for libraries to go up after writing. You can search a thread for it called "micro is alive" or something like that. Apart from the obvious 25% bonus, the thread expounds on some other advantages of it.

It isn't the 25% bonus so much as a rounding issue. When you're not at 0% or 100% research, often gold or beakers will be lost to rounding. (For example, 15 commerce would be converted into 15 beakers or 15 gold at 100% or 0% research, but only 7 beakers + 7 gold at 50% - i.e. 1 missing commerce.)

At least, that's the way I understand it.

 

[EmperorFool]

It isn't the 25% bonus so much as a rounding issue. When you're not at 0% or 100% research, often gold or beakers will be lost to rounding. (For example, 15 commerce would be converted into 15 beakers or 15 gold at 100% or 0% research, but only 7 beakers + 7 gold at 50% - i.e. 1 missing commerce.)

At least, that's the way I understand it.

That's exactly what happens. When you're only generating 15/turn, losing 1/turn due to rounding is sheer madness!

Binary research FTW.

 

[Sobric]

That's exactly what happens. When you're only generating 15/turn, losing 1/turn due to rounding is sheer madness!

Binary research FTW.

I have a question regarding binary research. Do beakers overflow into your next research project? I sometimes feel I should micro my research a bit more, reducing the slider as low as possible on the turn before discovery (while leaving it discovery in 1 turn) to maximise cash. If beakers overflow, however, I feel this is a waste. How does this work?