Berzerker
Deity
banning gay marriage imposes religion on others
Why I used to support gay marriage, but no longer do.
- Thread starter civman110
- Start date
onejayhawk
Afflicted with reason
You are spouting a typical atheist meme. Feel free to post the points of the Constitution (it isn't the 1st Amendment) or the SCOTUS cases you mention.
On second thought, I will go with this:
J
Kennigit
proud 2 boxer
If a business wants to take tax credits and such then the government by all means absolutely should force the business owner to provide service to customers.
Specifically for food caterers, I would expect any food establishment that is subject to a health inspection and calls itself a business to service customers such as former murderers released from prison for full completion of their sentence, gay couples, divorcees getting married to other people, atheists, communists, christians, jews, pastafarians, jamaicans, whites, blacks, women, men, tax frauders who have completed their sentence, embezzlers, shellfish eaters, pork eaters, immigrants, capitalists, whatever.
A business filing as a business is subject to consumer protection laws.
Specifically for food caterers, I would expect any food establishment that is subject to a health inspection and calls itself a business to service customers such as former murderers released from prison for full completion of their sentence, gay couples, divorcees getting married to other people, atheists, communists, christians, jews, pastafarians, jamaicans, whites, blacks, women, men, tax frauders who have completed their sentence, embezzlers, shellfish eaters, pork eaters, immigrants, capitalists, whatever.
A business filing as a business is subject to consumer protection laws.
bernie14
Filter Manipulator
Dont know if i get your point....so are you saying that if I go into a Jewish bakery and tell the guy that I want a cake with a fondant Hitler and a little oven with candy bones that light up when i light the candles. ....or a muslim bakery and ask for a big smiley Mohammad on my cake .....the government should force those business to make them???
What "services"? If you're a civil servant you do whatever public policy is. You process the damn paperwork or find a new line of work.
On the other hand, registered celebrants are under no obligation to conduct any given ceremony, and churches likewise have discretion. Hell, Catholic churches get to follow canon law and refuse their facilities to divorcees because of reasons.
Are you talking about, like, florists and bakers being bigots? Nobody is making them do any given bit of private business but if they're offering a service on particular terms (ie advertising something at a certain price) then they have obligations to fulfill that offer to anyone taking it up. It's a form of contract with potential customers.
And if they suddenly refuse to provide the publicly offeree service then the dicriminated-against people should sue their arses, more power to them. Same as if a florist was dumb enough to tell a couple "no service to mixed race ceremonies" really.
I dunno. Maybe you get away with pitching yourself from the get-go as a florist who specifically and exclusively does church events but meh.
Nope. Just so much nope. As far as public policy is concerned marriage is a legal status entered into voluntarily for life, a legal status that confers a set of rights and obligations that alter how one interacts with the state. The core of marriage is the status of being married, ceremonies have virtually no minimum or necessary content.
When I become a marriage celebrant in the near future I won't be conducting religious sacraments, I don't have that authority from any denomination of any religion. I'll be ensuring documents are in order and conducting ceremonies that conform to couples wishes and the minimal requirements of the Commonwealth of Australia's Marriage Act 1961.
Whatever a particular religious denomination deems as marriage is their own business and lots of people combine a religious ceremony with the civil minimum for convenience and tradition. But nope just so much nope.
In line with what Arwon is saying, if two gay people decide that they want the same legal benefits as any heterosexual married couple, they should be able to go to a registry office and sign a legal document to that effect. If there isn't even a whiff of a dog-collar within 100 paces, then it's not remotely a religious sacrament, but instead a legal agreement which confers specific benefits that opponents of gay marriage would otherwise deny them.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
I imagine that most non-Jewish and non-Muslim bakers would refuse to take that work, so I'm not sure the analogy works.
Nobody
Gangster
They don't show more gay sex than straight sex. Probably more straight sex but at least equal. and its normally setting up a storyline.
To go back a page, refusing service is certainly imposing your beliefs. The important part is that it's not using government force to do so. We want to have the right to remove ourselves from those we disagree with.
Now, religions have a tough slog here. For years they've gotten tax breaks for printing a book that says practicing gays should be murdered. They've enculturated an unacceptable level of bigotry. As usual, it's the immature that ruin freedoms. The historical bigots stole our right to discriminate.
Now, religions have a tough slog here. For years they've gotten tax breaks for printing a book that says practicing gays should be murdered. They've enculturated an unacceptable level of bigotry. As usual, it's the immature that ruin freedoms. The historical bigots stole our right to discriminate.
warpus
In pork I trust
Yeah, this is pretty much my position. If you want to provide services to the public in exchange for money, aka run a business, you shouldn't be able to discriminate against someone just based on their skin colour, religion, sexual orientation, or whatever.
Now, churches are not really businesses, and my position bends a little bit to allow them to make their "religiously mandated exceptions" as well, such as not marrying homosexuals or gamblers or whoever..
Not that my position needs repeating, but I guess it's good to see somebody else with the seemingly exact same position as mine.
Kennigit
proud 2 boxer
Do they advertise that they provide that service?
warpus
In pork I trust
Obviously refusing to sell someone a Hitler cake is not discrimination, unless I guess the person requesting the cake is Hitler himself. In which case it's still not discrimination, because "Hitlers" is not a protected class or anything remotely similar.
There is a huge difference between: "We don't serve your kind here" and "We don't ever sell cakes like that, to anyone"
There is a huge difference between: "We don't serve your kind here" and "We don't ever sell cakes like that, to anyone"
civman110
Immortal
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2012
- Messages
- 2,111
Ok Comrade. Should the businesses no longer be private as well?
FYI, private business owners aren't civil servants. Government workers are.
I'm not sure I sympathize with the 'as a business, you get certain protections and you get certain responsibilities'. I've no problem with it, if it comes as a voluntary package. But, sometimes you're forced to get a business designation. I'm not really okay with foisting too many obligations onto those designations. I much prefer the escalating "here are your packages of protections and responsibilities", choose one.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Just curious, if refusing service is imposing beliefs, is the inverse of that true as well, that demanding service is also imposing beliefs?
warpus
In pork I trust
If you are providing a service and somebody says: "Okay, sign me up.", that is not really a demand of service.
Kennigit
proud 2 boxer
I cannot make my internet service provider bake a hitler cake as is customary in my religion when having internet provided
So probably
So probably
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
You misunderstood my question. If you force a Islamic bakery to bake a cake making fun of the Prophet, are you not imposing your beliefs upon the bakery in question?
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