SGOTM 06 - The Real Ms. Beyond

AlanH

AlanH

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Welcome to your C_IV Warlords SGOTM 6 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game

Gyathaar is playing this one close to his chest. Here's all the intelligence I've been able to wring out of him:

  • Prince difficulty
  • Epic speed
  • You play as the Charismatic, Protective Churchill of the English Empire.
  • You start with Fishing and Mining.
  • Your unique unit is the Redcoat, replacing the Rifleman.
  • Your Unique building is the Stock Exchange, replacing the Bank.
  • The map is a highly modified Cylindrical Big And Small map, using the BtS map script. It is Standard, Temperate, Medium sea level.
  • Always war. All VCs are enabled. I think the barbs are at default setting.
Here's the start - click the picture for one a bit bigger.

​

Versions
This game will be played in Warlords Version 2.13, on Windows only, with the DLLs as installed with BtS.

It will be played using the current version of the HoF Mod. This is version 2.13.002 for Windows. You will need to ensure that you can run the Asset Checker v2 before you attempt to load this game. Typlically, players who have upgraded to Beyond the Sword will have the right assets. Alternatively, you should be able to make your installation compliant by installing the new .DLLs released for WOTM 15. If you have a Steam installation then you will need to look at this post by ArcadicGamer for inspiration.

If later versions of Warlords or the HoF Mod are released they cannot be used for this game, and you will need to maintain a copy of your installed software at these versions to complete the game.

Timetable
The game will start on December 14th. I recommend you plan for a 4 month deadline for completion.

You will be able to download your start save from the SGOTM Progress and Results Page on December 14th, at midnight local server time.

Notes
  • Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  • Warlords v.2.13 is supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with the same version throughout the game.
  • Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. The number of awards may be reduced, depending on the number of teams who sign up.
  • Awards will be given to teams who win in the least turns.
  • All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Enjoy your mystery tour of the World of Warlords.
 
Welcome to the Real Ms. Beyond team thread for SGOTM6!

Current rotation: :
Compromise
TheArchduke
SwissPauli
LKendter
Kodii
sunrise089

Ruff_Hi -- lurking

General guidelines for play:

Philosophy: We want to be competitive, but it's more important to enjoy this. Respect your teammates and the other competitors. Share your thoughts and opinions and let others do the same. There are some stupid questions, but it's better to hear those than to let good ones go unasked for fear of the stupid label. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes, but we always play the hand we're dealt (or stuck with!).

Turnsets: When playing, please be aware of the discussion leading up to your turnset. We're not in a rush (yet!), so let the team come to consensus on the goals for the turnset. And if while playing you don't know what to do, stop and we'll discuss it. Generally, a turnset will run about 10-20 turns once the game is well underway. We're more interested in stopping at strategic decision points--next tech, where city, major tactical shifts--than strict turn counts.

Keeping it rolling: While discussion is important, we do need to keep things moving to complete the game in a reasonable amount of time. As of the Dec 15 start, April 14th is the anticipated must-finish date. To help, please keep everyone informed of your availability. If we're ready to go, we want the turnset played within about 24 hours. If you can't play then, that's fine, just ask for a swap or a skip. When you're up, please post an "I got it" after you download and open the save. If you have known time constraints, please let us know at that time. It might focus our discussion or prepare the player after you for a possible swap.

Reporting: Please include strategic and representative tactical information in your turnset report. New map info is best presented visually. Pay attention to in-game announcements for notices about wonders, religions, great people, etc.

Signs: Use of in-game signs is encouraged. But don't let obsolete signs clutter the landscape: delete the useless, redundant or irritating with impunity!

Options: I like seeing the tile grid (Ctrl-T) and the resources (Ctrl-R) both in-game and in screenshots. The Hall of Fame mod has some useful features. Some that I like are the "tile grid is on by default", the turn count as the clock text, and the alerts that let you know when cities are growing, expanding, etc. I'd also suggest turning on "Enemy moves", but later that might get oppressive. Ruff_hi has compiled a post with many of the HoF options, some of which include his code! Feel free to experiment. [Anyone else have suggestions for option settings?]

Leave 'em happy: Humor is always encouraged (well good humor anyway). I'd put more in, but since looks don't count, I'm not funny. [Captain action--Warning: see point about good humor...!]


Other issues that just clutter a post if they're not hidden in spoiler tags:

Spoiler Idea for "Advisory Committees" (ACs) to divide up the micromanagement responsibilities :

I would like to get feedback on this proposal: Usually in SGs I've played, everyone takes a look at the game and offers thoughts on every aspect of the game, e.g. city tile assignments, AI diplomacy/trades/relations/etc, dotmap plans, tech plan, overall strategy, etc.

I am wondering if there is interest in forming a few "advisory committees" (ACs) of 2-3 players each who will try to give each major area of the game some good attention after each turnset. Then, someone from each AC can post between each turnset so that the next player knows clearly what is planned and expected. Everyone can, of course, post opinions on any or all subjects, but the responsibility for compiling a list for the player will fall to someone on each AC.

My first thoughts for this game are for 3 ACs:

1) Strategic AC will try to ensure that we are not getting lost in the details (tech priority is IW; next offensive is SW; wait, we can win diplo faster than domination; Great person planning)

2) Tactical AC will make suggestions about troop movements, needs and AI considerations (Put defenders x,y,z on hill x; build 3 more spears; raze this city and keep these two).

3) Micro AC will give micromanagement suggestions (have city A work tiles x,y,z; whip library on 3rd turn; place sentry on this hill; add or delete the following in-game signs). Micro will take into account Strategy and Tactical input.

Initially, the known game area will be small enough that we won't need this, but eventually, it will probably get overwhelming for us each to look at the game individually and for a single person to combine all suggestions in all areas. Thoughts?

And these ACs should not substitute for active examination by everyone. It's just that many good suggestions get lost or forgotten when the player actually plays.
 
The Real Ms. Beyond SGOTM6 game summary:[pre]
Turnset Player Post Comments
1: 4000BC - 3130BC Compromise 45 Settled in place. Agri->AH. Mined gold
2: 3130BC - 2650BC TheArchduke 63 Teched BW. Imp'd cows, banana. Scouted Athens.
3: 2650BC - 2220BC Swiss Pauli 119 Tech Wheel, Pottery Scouting. Whipped 1st Settler
4: 2220BC - 1870BC LKendter 135 Settled York. 2 axes out. Found Mansa
5: 1870BC - 1390BC Compromise 160 Scouting (found Hannibal). Tech IW. 1st Chariot.
6: 1390BC - 1270BC TheArchduke 186 (1st part) Scout Carthage; pillage its Copper
7: 1270BC - 850BC TheArchduke 199 (2nd part) Buildup for assault on Athens
8: 850BC - 700BC Swiss Pauli 202 Buildup and start moving toward Athens
9: 700BC - 580BC LKendter 217 Reach Athens. Start attack. Bad RNG luck
10: 580BC - 565BC LKendter 225 After consulting team, continue attack at 50/50 odds
11: 565BC - 550BC Ruff_hi 247 Last unit v. last unit in Athens. We weep.
12: 550BC - 400BC Kodii 257, 267 Reconsolidation. Prep for pillaging parties.
12: 400BC - 175BC Compromise 283 Take Corinth (elephants) and Thebes (Iron) from Alex.
13: 175BC - 5AD TheArchduke 300 Consolidation. First cats and elephants trained.
[After this point, it became clear that we wouldn't be competitive and the unlikelihood of anyone actually referring to our efforts ended Compromise's motivation to continue updating this page. My apologies.]
[/pre]

Posts with nice maps in them:
Near capital, early contacts
Ragnar(?)'s location
Near-capital bronze, horses, region
Athens
Athenian copper; Continent-wide iron; Timbuktu's west side

Links to threads with good AW advice:
(Help!)

Our continuing saga:
Spoiler :

With Christmas coming soon, the Real Ms. Beyond team agreed to run a few turnsets to discover Animal Husbandry and Bronzeworking and then take a break for the holidays. This might allow those with time to run some practice games--not on the actual game save, of course!--to help us better understand the AI's behavior on Always War Prince.

We moved the starting warrior SW and figured we were near the coast, but decided against moving toward the coast and so settled in place. Our starting warrior did some limited exploring and got himself promoted to Woodsman II--and named "Woody"--by killing two of Hannibal's scouts who foolishly ended their turns on flatlands near Woody.

A bit of a mistake: we started worker first who mined the gold, and went Agri->AH so as to improve the cow. But we should have gone Hunting->AH so as to work the cows sooner. We also met Mansa and were able to fog gaze to see Ragnar's borders W and S across the water of our start.

Initially, we thought there might be no strategic resources, but on the second turnset, exploration revealed Horses not too far away and copper in the capital's BFC. Nice.

With another warrior built in the capital, Woody found Athens for us: a nice built-on-stone coastal capital with two seafood resources. We salivated a bit and coveted the site. Sadly Woody--our Woodsman II scouting warrior--died to animals while trying to scout Athens.

In our quest for death or glory, we whipped our first settler even before preparing an axe to defend the new city. The intent was to have it be hammer-productive even at size 2, so we plan to place it 1NW of horses, 1SE of cows so that it can work those 2 improved tiles without any border expansions. No other site seemed as useful for quick hammers and low worker activity.

York was settled so that it could work cows and horses without a border expansion. Our only worker was sent along to improve it. A couple quick axes were built/whipped for defense.

With a few axes around, we sent out most warriors for scouting duty. One looked north and ended up parking on a hill overlooking Mansa's capital Timbuktu (on a hill, defended by skirmishers...yikes). One found the east coast of the continent, then found Hannibal sending a settler north out of his capital far to the southeast. Another decided to scout Athens a bit and found a mined, but unconnected copper mine near Athens, but he died by Greek archerfire before he could get to the mine entrance.

The discovery of the copper mine caused much distress our English warplanners. The lone London axe garrison was promptly dispatched south to investigate the situation. Will he get there to close down the mine before Aggressive Shock Greek Axes can be whipped out of Athens?

Yes! Our lone axe is able to pillage the Greek copper mine before it is connected. A stack of 9 axes and 3 chariots heads down to claim Athens for the British Empire.

In an epic battle, the battle for Athens comes down to one chariot who loses against a 0.2 health archer. The next turn, our last mortally wounded chariot attempts to take on the same archer, now at 0.9 health. He, he...

...fails. Our axe-and-chariot rush fails and all we have to show for it are 3 fewer Greek archers and a somewhat less populated Athens.

We strive to generate a plan B....
 
Let's begin!

I ran a quick test in a game set up in WB to simulate the start position. I assumed we'd start in place since I couldn't see a compelling reason to do otherwise (in the real game, I'd move the warrior first, of course). I built a warrior while working a forested grass hill (8T) and then a worker (22T with 2H overflow from the warrior). I researched Agriculture then Animal Husbandry which completed on T29. I think our first two tile improvements will be the Cow and the gold mine in that order. We probably want to work those two all the time.

In the actual game, we might consider Hunting instead of Agri as the prereq for AH in anticipation of going for Archery. I'm really hoping, though, that we have Horses and/or Copper and won't need Archery. With a gold mine, we should be able to research it quickly if needed.

Especially given that we are Charismatic, we might want to build Stonehenge for quick BFC expansions and a happy-monument. Also, if the second gold mine doesn't get covered in jungle, we'll probably want a second city near it to work it asap.

Suggested goals for the first turnset (~25-30T): Settle London (in place?). Discover AH (via Hunting or Agri?). Build warrior, start (and finish?) worker. Priorities with starting warrior: 1) Choke nearby AI capital if found. 2) Pop huts. 3) Live (meaning try to end turns on defensive-bonus terrain. 4) Explore (determine locations of AIs and lay of the land and coast).

Short term goals: Grow empire. Work good tiles. Find strategic resources.
 
Checking in! (I hope you're done reserving posts)

I'm glad Compromise doesn't have to watch this thread every two seconds anymore. :lol:

Firstly, I like your idea for ACs, although I can imagine it becoming tedious. We'll have to see how that all pans out.

Secondly, how do you set up a game with the identical start as displayed by AlanH? I'd like to start up a test game, but I don't know how to make it as accurate as possible.
 
We won't worry about AC's until we have more than about 4-5 cities. Before that, it's easy enough for a couple people to check everything (if we want to be so retentive). We'll have to see how they turn out in practice, but the goal is just to divide the responsibility of looking things over in detail among several people, rather than just dumping everything on the current player.

As for the practice game, there is a file called "Big_and_Small_BtS.py" in <BtS installation directory>/Public Maps. If you copy that to the <Warlords install directory>/Public Maps, then "Big and Small" becomes a Custom Game map-type selection. I whipped one up for Churchill, then opened Worldbuilder to edit the starting fat cross to look like the we've seen for this event.

I regenerated the map about a dozen times trying to get a non-coastal start, but every single time, I was on the coast. I gave up trying to roll an interior start and had to put grasslands over all those nice fishies....
 
checking in - I will have to locate my copy of warlords and see if I have the right assets.
 
Reporting for duty :salute:

Holidays: 19-22 December visiting family, so I'll be online but Civless. 23-30 December: based at home, but a few day trips planned and working a couple of days. 31 Dec - 2 Jan away from Civ and unlikely to have much, if any, internet access.

General Ideas

- Risk: how much will we take, and from how early. Death or Glory would be my proposal. As such, I'll be advocating a worker first start :p

Test-game ideas
- I know the map is heavily edited, but let's look at some Cylindrical Big & Small in WB to see the how they look (esp for AI/Landmass distribution).

- Different openings should be tried: e.g. worker first, warrior first, barracks first, and maybe even Settler first, and also different tech orders.

- Each player should run an extended test game to test some approaches: e.g. choke start, early rush, rolling conquest, rush and hold, turtle til Redcoats, etc.
 
Swiss Pauli said:
- Risk: how much will we take, and from how early. Death or Glory would be my proposal. As such, I'll be advocating a worker first start :p
Click to expand...
If we have the needed techs for the worker to do something, I agree. We can send the warrior on a limited search around the capitol. Scouting AI units won't enter our territory except if the capitol is empty.


Unlike Epic14, we have NO early restrictions. We want to park some archers or better near some AI capitols to kill their production.

We need to decide on the high level win goal. IMHO with this being AW a military win is the only reasonable plan. Until I can study the map type some, I can't determine if domination or conquest is more viable.
 
Almost forgot about holidays - Dec 21 / 22 and Dec 31 / early Jan 1 I can't play. In between those dates, my availablilty may get chaotic.
 
sunrise089 said:
Checking in. The advisory committees seem like a good idea. Will we be assigned to one, or will we rotate between them?

I think the early turns are clear - as said, settle in place, research AH, warrior than worker. The only thing that would really matter is the initial warrior move.
Click to expand...

I expect that we'll generally stick with one AC, but if it turns out not to be your cup of tea, we can always change things up a bit. This is very experimental, so we'll have to find what works (if anything).

Swiss Pauli said:
General Ideas

- Risk: how much will we take, and from how early. Death or Glory would be my proposal. As such, I'll be advocating a worker first start :p

Test-game ideas
- I know the map is heavily edited, but let's look at some Cylindrical Big & Small in WB to see the how they look (esp for AI/Landmass distribution).

- Different openings should be tried: e.g. worker first, warrior first, barracks first, and maybe even Settler first, and also different tech orders.

- Each player should run an extended test game to test some approaches: e.g. choke start, early rush, rolling conquest, rush and hold, turtle til Redcoats, etc.
Click to expand...

Death or glory...I'm liking your thinking. In general, I think that if you want to win these types of competitions, you've got to go for a few big gambles. Since the starting warrior would take 8T, a worker first would give us 8T more of improved tile working. We've got mining, so the gold hill can be improved immediately. The one thing I'd like to check is if a passing AI warrior will pillage our mine if our capital has a troop in it.

A downside of worker-first is that a single hut could bring more booty that 8 extra turns of working an improved tile. Or at least deny that booty to an AI. (Of course, a hostile hut pop could also doom us too!)

I think we can try some different practice openings. I'd like to get the first two turnsets--which I see as (1) get AH and (2) get Bronzeworking--run before Christmas. That way, we have a good idea of the layout of the land and our early resources to set up decent practice games that we can run over the holiday break as each of us find time.

LKendter said:
If we have the needed techs for the worker to do something, I agree. We can send the warrior on a limited search around the capitol. Scouting AI units won't enter our territory except if the capitol is empty.

Unlike Epic14, we have NO early restrictions. We want to park some archers or better near some AI capitols to kill their production.

We need to decide on the high level win goal. IMHO with this being AW a military win is the only reasonable plan. Until I can study the map type some, I can't determine if domination or conquest is more viable.
Click to expand...

Agree with everything said here. I expect Conquest will be the fastest victory. The map script seems to generate one big continent and then a whole bunch of small islands. Almost like one side of a pangea continent just gets fractured. From our start, I'd guess we're on the big continent, but beware that when Gyathaar says "highly edited," you know he's not kidding!

Another note: in none of the maps that I looked at was there a coastal route around the world. (Except maybe if two cities with expanded borders were placed at edges of the world. Maybe.)

Edit: Since everyone's checked in, I've updated the first reference post and included vacation plans. Right now, it looks like after Dec 20 (+/- a day), we won't plan to run any game turnsets until the new year.
 
AlanH said:
Timetable
The game will start on December 14th. I recommend you plan for a 4 month deadline for completion.
Click to expand...


Compromise said:
I think we can try some different practice openings. I'd like to get the first two turnsets--which I see as (1) get AH and (2) get Bronze working--run before Christmas. That way, we have a good idea of the layout of the land and our early resources to set up decent practice games that we can run over the holiday break as each of us find time.

Edit: Since everyone's checked in, I've updated the first reference post and included vacation plans. Right now, it looks like after Dec 20 (+/- a day), we won't plan to run any game turnsets until the new year.
Click to expand...


Don't forget about the target deadline. I don't want to suffer another rushed ending like SGOTM#5. Wrapping up that game was pure torture for me with the panic at the end, and too few players available.
 
One thing did work well in SGOTM#5 was removing fixed number of turns, and trying to encourage people to break a logic point. If going to turn 16 will let us see the new GP, shows where iron is, etc then that extra turn is worth it. Playing a turn short is also good if that is how to hit the breaking point.
 
@TheArchduke: You can be our designated test-game runner over the holidays! Then we'll put your findings to the test, but you won't be able to see what happens until you return from the Land of the Nile. :D

LKendter is right about turnsets. We want to keep things running as fast as possible. Later in the game, I can easily imagine a situation where we will play fast and loose with the roster so that we can get a turnset run every 48hrs or so.

In these very early stages, however, I don't mind taking our time. If we get a good idea of the lay of the local land by running a couple turnsets, I'm hopeful that many of us can use our "break" to get some practice games in.

I *really* like running turnsets to a natural/strategic breakpoint and then stopping. This helps decisions get made by the team, rather than by an individual. If you ever feel like you don't know how to proceed. Please post and ask so that we can come to a consensus.


On another note: Anyone want to do some metagaming and guess at the type of world Gyathaar has made for us? With my guesstimated confidence in parentheses: I'm guessing that Astronomy *will* be required to get to all the civs (60%). I'm also guessing that the capital has all three early strategic resources: Horses, Copper and Iron (50%, 80% for at least 2). That way, it doesn't matter which route people go first. If it's only one, then too many teams might be wiped out by an early unforeseeable strategic misguess. And finally, I'm guessing that there are 2 AIs on the big continent with us, with the rest on their own little islands (60%).
 
One of our big advantages is a lot of the typical game issues are meaningless. Who care about diplomacy? Adopting a religion is clear, as we want theology for extra experience to keep our troops alive. We don't have to worry about another civ being offended by our gods. Trading is meaningless.

This game will be won by kill ratios, shutting down the AIs (parked units by there cities), and not falling hopelessly behind in tech.


With the holidays coming up, I would like to suggest everyone at least confirm then get open the game. I will try to do tonight.
 
Good points. I don't think the game is scheduled to start--so no saves available--until tomorrow. That may be delayed depending on whether Gyathaar's recent trip set back his schedule much.

I know I had some type of "CRC Missing" issue when I made my practice game with the HoF download. It didn't matter since I created the game and could play it, but I might need to do some DLL downloading to run the actual SGOTM. We'll want to verify this. I expect the Maintenance Thread will address these issues when the game opens.
 
metagaming:
  1. astronomy will not be required, but a suitably placed city with border pop to get over ocean tile will be required.
  2. copper will not be found close, iron will, horses at a middle distance - thus the reason for the gold near by (ie research to iron required)

Other ...
  • conquest should be our preferred victory condition
  • but we should look closely at the domination limit - I am fairly sure that the large island will not be large enough
  • anyone got views on the best way to play AW? ... my 2c - turtle is not an option
 
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