i would get murdered on deity. i can only win a few emperor games normally.
the only time i have beaten immortal/deity is with a tiny map and quechua rush (but that's just so cheap isn't it?)
Clash of Deity War(Peace)mongers 2 - BTS - Zara Yaqob
- Thread starter ABigCivFan
- Start date
i would get murdered on deity. i can only win a few emperor games normally.
the only time i have beaten immortal/deity is with a tiny map and quechua rush (but that's just so cheap isn't it?)
ABigCivFan
Emperor
@Cellku,
I did this by building the GL/NE in capital, had some key bulbs and trading.
I self-researched Math early, chopped settlers faster.
Mensa/Darius/Hannibal are some of the best tech trading partners in the game, so you have to try to beat them to key techs (Aest/Literature/COL/Philosophy) for building GL and round-trading.
Here are the rough sequesce:
1. Self Research Aest-Liberature.
2. Trade Aest+1 cheap tech for Alphebat
3. Build GL/NE (we have Marble) and grow GS
4. Self research or trade for COL
5. Bulb Philosophy using a GS
6. Traded Philo+cheap tech for CS+MC+Calendar+Currency (This round trade was in my 1st game update on page 1)
So pretty straightforward, but timing is crucial.
Next will bulb Education, maybe bulb Liberalism.
There is a good formula/guide written by Snaaty that outlined this strategy. It is a solid strategy, with some practice you can perfect it.
The most important factor in this strategy is building GL/NE early, especially for a non-philosophical civ, and get those GS out in time for bulbing.
I did this by building the GL/NE in capital, had some key bulbs and trading.
I self-researched Math early, chopped settlers faster.
Mensa/Darius/Hannibal are some of the best tech trading partners in the game, so you have to try to beat them to key techs (Aest/Literature/COL/Philosophy) for building GL and round-trading.
Here are the rough sequesce:
1. Self Research Aest-Liberature.
2. Trade Aest+1 cheap tech for Alphebat
3. Build GL/NE (we have Marble) and grow GS
4. Self research or trade for COL
5. Bulb Philosophy using a GS
6. Traded Philo+cheap tech for CS+MC+Calendar+Currency (This round trade was in my 1st game update on page 1)
So pretty straightforward, but timing is crucial.
Next will bulb Education, maybe bulb Liberalism.
There is a good formula/guide written by Snaaty that outlined this strategy. It is a solid strategy, with some practice you can perfect it.
The most important factor in this strategy is building GL/NE early, especially for a non-philosophical civ, and get those GS out in time for bulbing.
These deity threads are very helpfull in improving your game. I´ve not managed to win this one with Zara though, but learned alot from trying 
I´m deffinitly ready to join in and give it go, if another deity thread is started.
One thing i would like to know more about is the way you guys tech. How you decide on what to research next. I know the basics in the early game up until Litt, but from here i´m not allways during well. If i just beeline to Lib, i often end up losing it to Mansa anyways.... and if i beeline to Lib, i find i hard to do the round trading of techs....
Another question is... Do you always Bulb your GP´s ?... i can see the need on deity to bulb and trade around to keep up, but i just find it so ...hmm.. annoying to use em like that.
On immortal i can do well and win without bulbing, but not on deity..i always fall behind..
I´m deffinitly ready to join in and give it go, if another deity thread is started.
One thing i would like to know more about is the way you guys tech. How you decide on what to research next. I know the basics in the early game up until Litt, but from here i´m not allways during well. If i just beeline to Lib, i often end up losing it to Mansa anyways.... and if i beeline to Lib, i find i hard to do the round trading of techs....
Another question is... Do you always Bulb your GP´s ?... i can see the need on deity to bulb and trade around to keep up, but i just find it so ...hmm.. annoying to use em like that.
On immortal i can do well and win without bulbing, but not on deity..i always fall behind..
I'm not a deity player myself, but from what I have read I'd say well-timed lightbulbs are necessary when racing to liberalism. I also play my immortal games this way. After literature I always lightbulb philo, and trade it around. It is so expensive tech that it's really good for backfilling techs via trades. Then I usually self research paper (assuming I got civil service from trade) and use 1 or 2 bulbs for education. Liberalism I usually self research. I only trade techs that lead to liberalism to backwards civs (except philo).
ABigCivFan, thanks for your advice. I think what slowed me down was my early expansion (due to Darius aggressive settling I felt forced to settle rather quickly). I had Aest quite early, IIRC some time before 1000 BC, but then my science dropped. Still, at 1 AD I am much further down the path to Lib than in many of my games before.
So, a few more questions about your game/way of playing:
1.) In my games, Darius got Philo in the 600s BC, IIRC. Are you able to get Philo that quick, as well? IF not when do you usually get it?
2.) Do you use all GS for lightbulbing - even the first one? I think I remember that I once read a post - I think it was from Snaaty - that the first GS could/should be used for an academy and only the following for bulbing.
3.) I saw in your 1AD save that you had another religion than Darius (but shared Hannibal's). Do you consider Darius to be friendly (i.e. not mean) enough to not attack you? Under which cirmcumstances (in this game) would you have considered to carry on without a religion?
Thanks for your information. I am learning quite a bit here.
So, a few more questions about your game/way of playing:
1.) In my games, Darius got Philo in the 600s BC, IIRC. Are you able to get Philo that quick, as well? IF not when do you usually get it?
2.) Do you use all GS for lightbulbing - even the first one? I think I remember that I once read a post - I think it was from Snaaty - that the first GS could/should be used for an academy and only the following for bulbing.
3.) I saw in your 1AD save that you had another religion than Darius (but shared Hannibal's). Do you consider Darius to be friendly (i.e. not mean) enough to not attack you? Under which cirmcumstances (in this game) would you have considered to carry on without a religion?
Thanks for your information. I am learning quite a bit here.
ABigCivFan
Emperor
What were you doing with your older cities while you REX? I normally whip granary/Monuments/Liberary quickly and run 2 scientists in food rich cities and cottage flood plain cities to help with early research.
I bulbed Philo 300BC in this game, maybe due to war among the other 3, they were busy with researching war techs. But every game is different.
If early on you have a good science capital, use the first GS on an Academy if nothing good to bulb. I very rarely save a Gperson and let him sit idle(with the exception of key bulbs and founding corps), if nothing good for them to do, settle in the appropariate cities.
Yes, I need religious civics every game, OR/Theocracy give crucial bonues to economical/military and later cultural build ups. So I chose to share Hannibal's religion ASAP since he was the most dangerous. In turn, he attacked the other 2 peace mongers and slowing down their research rate.
Unconquered Sun
Emperor
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Played a bit more, up to 1220 ad. Got Sistine, Lib, Taj, SoL, and started the 100% run for cultural, pausing only for Bio and maybe now for Broadway and/or levees.
Darius and Mansa beat Hannibal and Darius temporarily vassalized him. Darius lost his master % when Bactra flipped.
"My" other continent is somewhat balanced. Civs there are about the same power, JC leading a bit.
Mansa is friendly and we have a def pact. Cathy and KK fight a lot. None other plan war.
Settling the marble was awesome, definitely worth it. I'm not that happy with how trade routes got the axe in BtS. You can see why: no matter how many % bonuses you pile on top, when the base is low because the AI cities are tiny the route is low value. It's past 1000 AD on deity no less, and still Cathy's largest city is 14 pop. Mansa, Han, KK are 14 or less too. Darius has a couple of 18s. JC provided me with one 19 pop city route before he adopted Merc, but everything else was 16 and below. That's miles away from Warlords times base values, where I've had routes of 16-17 commerce in early ADs with civs on a shared landmass.
Darius and Mansa beat Hannibal and Darius temporarily vassalized him. Darius lost his master % when Bactra flipped.
"My" other continent is somewhat balanced. Civs there are about the same power, JC leading a bit.
Mansa is friendly and we have a def pact. Cathy and KK fight a lot. None other plan war.
Spoiler :
Settling the marble was awesome, definitely worth it. I'm not that happy with how trade routes got the axe in BtS. You can see why: no matter how many % bonuses you pile on top, when the base is low because the AI cities are tiny the route is low value. It's past 1000 AD on deity no less, and still Cathy's largest city is 14 pop. Mansa, Han, KK are 14 or less too. Darius has a couple of 18s. JC provided me with one 19 pop city route before he adopted Merc, but everything else was 16 and below. That's miles away from Warlords times base values, where I've had routes of 16-17 commerce in early ADs with civs on a shared landmass.
ABigCivFan
Emperor
@US:
How is the cultural sitiation in your game, is Mensa giving you a run?
We have similar amount of land to work with this game.
Wow @ Darius+Mensa defeating Hannibal, the revenge of the nerds
In my game, Hannibal was like a cool general, fighting 2 front war and winning, eventually took Darius vassel... And later he quickly decimated all JC's attempts at landing.
How is the cultural sitiation in your game, is Mensa giving you a run?
We have similar amount of land to work with this game.
Wow @ Darius+Mensa defeating Hannibal, the revenge of the nerds
In my game, Hannibal was like a cool general, fighting 2 front war and winning, eventually took Darius vassel... And later he quickly decimated all JC's attempts at landing.
Unconquered Sun
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
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- 1,462
@US:
How is the cultural sitiation in your game, is Mensa giving you a run?
We have similar amount of land to work with this game.
Wow @ Darius+Mensa defeating Hannibal, the revenge of the nerds
In my game, Hannibal was like a cool general, fighting 2 front war and winning, eventually took Darius vassel... And later he quickly decimated all JC's attempts at landing.
Mansa's a distant second.
I rate Hannibal higher than any other AI. He's very well balanced warmonger/peacemonger.
Darius managed to defeat him on chance. The Persian started a golden age while warring and instead of teching whatever peaceful stuff he normally does, he beelined chemistry/military science very early and traded it to Mansa.
So grens carried the day for them. This random development also influenced my plans, as I was undecided between peaceful cultural vic/rifle backstab. My HE city was all setup for producing units 1/turn and I had over 2k and a GM to pay for insta-upgrade to rifles. Globe was also nearly constructed. But in the end I decided it's not worth fighting grens without horse and without a strong Han to press Darius or Mansa back. A stack of rifles could still capture a border city or two, but so could culture flip.
On the other hand, another random development helped me as my exploration caraval runned into JC's one in the middle of nowhere ocean. JC had been first to discover astronomy, so despite not choosing Astro at Lib I ended up with first pick resource trades and cross-ocean trade routes, such as they are in BtS.
PS. Looked up saves - Darius got Military Science in 680 AD.
ABigCivFan
Emperor
@US:
It is very interesting to watch AIs fight among each others, it is really a numbers game. They all have tons of troops, with lousy promotions. But on Equal technological background, Aggressive or Charismatic civs do tend to win due to sheer number of extra promotions their troops carry. I have seen impressive and highly promoted Hannibal stacks.
Also peaceful civs like to stuff all their units in cities in a war like MM in my game, dont even go for an undefended city when I had relatively good power rating. That spelled MM's doom since I could just spam CR Artis and Tanks and go after his cities. The AIs need to taught to "attack" more aggressively in wars especially inside their territory with railroads, use those 20+ barrage Artillaries on my SODs instead of hiding them in cities and waited for my bombers/CR units to pummel them to dust. That will surely make warmongering much more interesting.
680AD Gren is hard to counter without Cannons/Curis/Rifles.
to the techclub.
@homeyg:
Nice effort in your other deity thread. You are welcome to try these games as you can compare your progress with some of the more experienced players. Feel free to post screens of your game and ask questions.
It is very interesting to watch AIs fight among each others, it is really a numbers game. They all have tons of troops, with lousy promotions. But on Equal technological background, Aggressive or Charismatic civs do tend to win due to sheer number of extra promotions their troops carry. I have seen impressive and highly promoted Hannibal stacks.
Also peaceful civs like to stuff all their units in cities in a war like MM in my game, dont even go for an undefended city when I had relatively good power rating. That spelled MM's doom since I could just spam CR Artis and Tanks and go after his cities. The AIs need to taught to "attack" more aggressively in wars especially inside their territory with railroads, use those 20+ barrage Artillaries on my SODs instead of hiding them in cities and waited for my bombers/CR units to pummel them to dust. That will surely make warmongering much more interesting.
680AD Gren is hard to counter without Cannons/Curis/Rifles.
to the techclub.@homeyg:
Nice effort in your other deity thread. You are welcome to try these games as you can compare your progress with some of the more experienced players. Feel free to post screens of your game and ask questions.
ABigCivFan,
Thanks for your very valuable advice! On lower levels I have always taken advantage of slavery, but - for some reason - I was afraid of doing that on deity as well. Now, I immediately switched to slavery and brought all my cities up to speed. A bit late, but better late then never. Moreover, I became religious and that helped as well. Since Hannibal DOWed Darius, the latter is out of the run for Lib... However, after the war Hannibal-MM had ended a few turns ago, MM has taken over the lead again and is teching like mad! I still hope I can make it to lib, since Darius was the front-runner in that direction.
I also reloaded an older save to try using slavery much earlier - it worked fine: I got Lit, GLib/NE much earlier (only a few turns from finishing even the Parthenon) and almost the same techs as in the 1 AD save (except CoL) that I had posted (only it was 200 BC). So, everything was fine and great, until around 200BC... and now I have a question concerning your military built-up: In your 1AD save you have hardly any defense - only a few archers. Aren't you afraid of being DOWed?
Whatever I did in my second (much better) variant - and I tried several times - I was always DOWed by Darius, in the end I was even DOWed by Darius AND Mansa. Then I gave up (and focused on my first game).
Is there anything I can do? I always shared Darius' religion and he was pleased with me. We had nice tech trades going on, he even gave me a cheap tech for free only a few turns earlier. I tried to give him whatever money I had which postponed the DOW by only one or two turns. I was not DOWed in my first variant (the posted 1AD save), even though I had less units - however, in the 1AD save I do have more cities.
What do you recommend? Should I build even more units? Should I close my borders for Darius? A few turns before Darius DOWed me, he had tons of troops marching through my land (towards Mansa, who fought with Darius' (and my) religious friend Hannibal).
Thanks for any thoughts you can provide.
Thanks for your very valuable advice! On lower levels I have always taken advantage of slavery, but - for some reason - I was afraid of doing that on deity as well. Now, I immediately switched to slavery and brought all my cities up to speed. A bit late, but better late then never. Moreover, I became religious and that helped as well. Since Hannibal DOWed Darius, the latter is out of the run for Lib... However, after the war Hannibal-MM had ended a few turns ago, MM has taken over the lead again and is teching like mad! I still hope I can make it to lib, since Darius was the front-runner in that direction.
I also reloaded an older save to try using slavery much earlier - it worked fine: I got Lit, GLib/NE much earlier (only a few turns from finishing even the Parthenon) and almost the same techs as in the 1 AD save (except CoL) that I had posted (only it was 200 BC). So, everything was fine and great, until around 200BC... and now I have a question concerning your military built-up: In your 1AD save you have hardly any defense - only a few archers. Aren't you afraid of being DOWed?
Whatever I did in my second (much better) variant - and I tried several times - I was always DOWed by Darius, in the end I was even DOWed by Darius AND Mansa. Then I gave up (and focused on my first game).
Is there anything I can do? I always shared Darius' religion and he was pleased with me. We had nice tech trades going on, he even gave me a cheap tech for free only a few turns earlier. I tried to give him whatever money I had which postponed the DOW by only one or two turns. I was not DOWed in my first variant (the posted 1AD save), even though I had less units - however, in the 1AD save I do have more cities.
What do you recommend? Should I build even more units? Should I close my borders for Darius? A few turns before Darius DOWed me, he had tons of troops marching through my land (towards Mansa, who fought with Darius' (and my) religious friend Hannibal).
Thanks for any thoughts you can provide.
ABigCivFan
Emperor
@Cellku
There are few things I would recommend:
1. If you worry about Darius, see if Hannibal is bribable to attack Darius. You will need some expensive tech that Hannibal does not have. I considered Hannibal my ally the entire game, he really did a great job to keep Darius/MM in check and later was a big factor to keep the powerful JC busy while I went for the culture win.
After 2 wars among those AIs, they would probably continue their wars instead of you since they hate each other.
2. Set up early HE city. This is very important. I normally send out my first archer out to gather 10xp from barbs. You can do this pretty easy on Deity since there are so many barbs, give it Combat+Cover/MedicI promotion it should reach 10xp to unlock HE. Once get Literature, build HE immediately in the best production city and have it pump best troop non-stop(Longbows/HA/Mace/Knights and etc).
3. Give in to demands.
4. whip barracks/walls in cities to increase power curve. The rest is by luck. If 2 AIs decide to dogpile you while pleased there is nothing you can do early in the game.
There are few things I would recommend:
1. If you worry about Darius, see if Hannibal is bribable to attack Darius. You will need some expensive tech that Hannibal does not have. I considered Hannibal my ally the entire game, he really did a great job to keep Darius/MM in check and later was a big factor to keep the powerful JC busy while I went for the culture win.
After 2 wars among those AIs, they would probably continue their wars instead of you since they hate each other.
2. Set up early HE city. This is very important. I normally send out my first archer out to gather 10xp from barbs. You can do this pretty easy on Deity since there are so many barbs, give it Combat+Cover/MedicI promotion it should reach 10xp to unlock HE. Once get Literature, build HE immediately in the best production city and have it pump best troop non-stop(Longbows/HA/Mace/Knights and etc).
3. Give in to demands.
4. whip barracks/walls in cities to increase power curve. The rest is by luck. If 2 AIs decide to dogpile you while pleased there is nothing you can do early in the game.
@ABigCivFan,
again, your advice was tremendously helpful! I build the HE and my (now) Moai/HE production city churns out units every turn. I will be able to triple the size of my armies...
I continued playing until I got Lib. Even though I got it much later than you did (exactly 300 years later, in 980 AD, I bulbed whenever I could), I was still the first to it. It seems that overall teching speed is much slower in my game (Mansa was still researching Edu when I got Lib). The reason is probably that Mansa has joined Darius in his war against Hannibal. The poor guy is now fighting a war on two fronts, but seems to do quite well. He took over one of Darius' cities. I hope, I am quick enough with churning out units to jump in and roll into Darius' northern territory...
Wonderwise, I got the USankore, but lost Taj, someone build it around the 500s/600s AD, so no chance for me. I made an attempt for Sistine, but had to give it up. I am now concentrating on National Wonders - building Oxford and Globe (to get my drafting city online...).
I compared my game with yours and am still astonished how you managed to survive with your few units - IIRC only one per city and in one city even only a warrior!!!
One more observation I made: I have never appreciated the effects of bureaucracy as much as I should have. Although I always chose it as soon as I could, I always took its effects for granted. Since for the first time I have not made my capital a science city, bureaucracy isn't accelerating my research as much as it could. I contemplate relocating my palace to my science city.
@Unconquered Sun: Could you post or send me your 1220AD save. I would like to get a look at it.
again, your advice was tremendously helpful! I build the HE and my (now) Moai/HE production city churns out units every turn. I will be able to triple the size of my armies...
I continued playing until I got Lib. Even though I got it much later than you did (exactly 300 years later, in 980 AD, I bulbed whenever I could), I was still the first to it. It seems that overall teching speed is much slower in my game (Mansa was still researching Edu when I got Lib). The reason is probably that Mansa has joined Darius in his war against Hannibal. The poor guy is now fighting a war on two fronts, but seems to do quite well. He took over one of Darius' cities. I hope, I am quick enough with churning out units to jump in and roll into Darius' northern territory...
Wonderwise, I got the USankore, but lost Taj, someone build it around the 500s/600s AD, so no chance for me. I made an attempt for Sistine, but had to give it up. I am now concentrating on National Wonders - building Oxford and Globe (to get my drafting city online...).
I compared my game with yours and am still astonished how you managed to survive with your few units - IIRC only one per city and in one city even only a warrior!!!
One more observation I made: I have never appreciated the effects of bureaucracy as much as I should have. Although I always chose it as soon as I could, I always took its effects for granted. Since for the first time I have not made my capital a science city, bureaucracy isn't accelerating my research as much as it could. I contemplate relocating my palace to my science city.
@Unconquered Sun: Could you post or send me your 1220AD save. I would like to get a look at it.
Will give this one another shot from the start during the weekend.
Is Mansa researching Aesthetics/Lib very early more like a fluke or does he do this often at Deity ? I pretty much beelined to Lib and even chopped 3 times for the GLib, but lost it to Mansa anyway.
The only thing that distracted me from the Lib/GLib was setting up the 4 blocking cities.
Is this kind of blocking (and just 1 worker per city) and still getting the GLib too much to expect on Deity vs. Mansa ?
CharonJr
Is Mansa researching Aesthetics/Lib very early more like a fluke or does he do this often at Deity ? I pretty much beelined to Lib and even chopped 3 times for the GLib, but lost it to Mansa anyway.
The only thing that distracted me from the Lib/GLib was setting up the 4 blocking cities.
Is this kind of blocking (and just 1 worker per city) and still getting the GLib too much to expect on Deity vs. Mansa ?
CharonJr
Unconquered Sun
Emperor
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- Dec 20, 2006
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@CellKu
1220 AD save
1220 AD save
Great! Thanks a lot!! Will look at it tonight.
ABigCivFan
Emperor
Cellku,
About my non-existance defense; I did spend some time evaluating my situiation and here is how i see it.
Hannibal is the bully, so I switched to his religiion to get him pleased. And he later DOWed on Darius and MM, so I dont worry about him BS me.
MM was pleased and a good trading partner, so i dont worry about him.
Darius was the only wild card while being pleased/Cautious. But he was being man-handled by Hannibal.
So there was no real threat to my early empire. So I was able to focus on peaceful build up.
When I felt real threat, I already had a strong Econ going with a perfect HE city. And was able to run military build up very quickly for my offenses.
On another note, if I mess up the diplomatic situiation early, having 10 extra axeman is not going to stop 2 Deity AIs coming with piles of Catapults/Axe/Swords if they decide to dogpile me.
About my non-existance defense; I did spend some time evaluating my situiation and here is how i see it.
Hannibal is the bully, so I switched to his religiion to get him pleased. And he later DOWed on Darius and MM, so I dont worry about him BS me.
MM was pleased and a good trading partner, so i dont worry about him.
Darius was the only wild card while being pleased/Cautious. But he was being man-handled by Hannibal.
So there was no real threat to my early empire. So I was able to focus on peaceful build up.
When I felt real threat, I already had a strong Econ going with a perfect HE city. And was able to run military build up very quickly for my offenses.
On another note, if I mess up the diplomatic situiation early, having 10 extra axeman is not going to stop 2 Deity AIs coming with piles of Catapults/Axe/Swords if they decide to dogpile me.
ABigCivFan, I understand your reasoning. I tried that in my second variant and failed - probably because Hannibal hadn't DOWed Darius already. I am still trying to figure out how much an AI has to like you/dislike another AI to DOW the AI (in my games it is usually not enough just to offer a nice tech).
I think I have to become more certain how to react to demands of AIs that affect your standing towards other AIs. For example, if I am weak I will give them whatever tech they want, or: I would never DOW an AI if another AI asks me to - except when I was already planning to do it. However, I am unsure about "stop trading"-demands. What do you normally do? Imagine Hannibal asks you to stop trading with your buddy Mansa...
I think I have to become more certain how to react to demands of AIs that affect your standing towards other AIs. For example, if I am weak I will give them whatever tech they want, or: I would never DOW an AI if another AI asks me to - except when I was already planning to do it. However, I am unsure about "stop trading"-demands. What do you normally do? Imagine Hannibal asks you to stop trading with your buddy Mansa...
