CCM1 (epic mod)

Something I never mentioned, but crossed my mind many times, is the ta da for wonders. I know you use the same one to save space, but I think it is a bit of a turn off, just to save a few MB.

Maybe 4 or 5 to alternate, would not be so harsh. There are so many wonders and that is what made it more annoying.

vmxa said:

Something I never mentioned, but crossed my mind many times, is the ta da for wonders. I know you use the same one to save space, but I think it is a bit of a turn off, just to save a few MB.

Maybe 4 or 5 to alternate, would not be so harsh. There are so many wonders and that is what made it more annoying.

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I agree, after a while the thing gets tiresome. Maybe a simple "Ta da!" or "Ta da da!" instead. Something brisk and very short. Make the announcement and get it over with. If you're going to use but one for all wonders, you want something succinct, the current Ta Da! is not succinct.

I'm only to 1806 AD and don't quite want to quit. I'll give it a few more days and see. BTW I play w/sound off because I don't want to wake others up! Give .3 biq a longer lead time? Doh!

I normally play with sound off as well, but with all the new stuff, I figured I would listen to the effects.

The historian in me has a complaint: torpedo boats should NOT be able to bombard!

These TBs were barelly able to float, in some cases. What puny guns they had were simply to defend themselfs of other TBs. Therefore I believe you should remove bombardment from them

jlvfr said:

The historian in me has a complaint: torpedo boats should NOT be able to bombard!

These TBs were barelly able to float, in some cases. What puny guns they had were simply to defend themselfs of other TBs. Therefore I believe you should remove bombardment from them

Click to expand...

I can see the reasoning behind allowing TBs to bombard; insofar as TBs were able to attack using their torpedoes, and bombardment is a way to simulate TB tactics. That said, the ability to bombard the land sounds like something hard-coded into the game. That is, if one is going to give a unit the ability to bombard units at sea, one must give the unit the ability to bombard units on land.

Then again, there is the story out of World War II in which an American sub, patrolling in the Philippines, torpedoed a Japanese truck on a beach front road.

mythusmage said:

Then again, there is the story out of World War II in which an American sub, patrolling in the Philippines, torpedoed a Japanese truck on a beach front road.

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That is amazing but apart from the operational fluke, considering the cost of the torpedo against the truck, I think the Japanese won that round.

I found the wonder sound effect rather annoying too. Unfortunately there can be only one.

mythusmage said:

I can see the reasoning behind allowing TBs to bombard; insofar as TBs were able to attack using their torpedoes, and bombardment is a way to simulate TB tactics. That said, the ability to bombard the land sounds like something hard-coded into the game. That is, if one is going to give a unit the ability to bombard units at sea, one must give the unit the ability to bombard units on land.

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I'd say remove all ability to bombard, tbh. Then, boost the attack power, and drop defense to 1 (this things were really weak tin cans...)

I was making a run with the updates and I feel I need to lobby a bit for a removal of enslavers.

They are just too strong for humans. Get one and patrol the neighbor taking down workers and settlers. Just kills that nation. Maybe a real short life that does not start in the first age. Then you won't cripple them.

To me they do more damage than armies. At least you have to earn the armies and do not have a large supply of them. Well warmongers may, but even then it is very late. The AI will do little to most players with theirs as the human will take care. If they don't they will just start a newgame most likely.

I mean I sent one out south and found Egypt and took out two workers. Move to the next town and caught a settler and then another worker. Now they are toast and can never get back in the game.

Worse I am Germany and I learned Iron as my first research, so I have swords and spears. I may just put them out of their misery. This is essentially what happen in the first game. I sent over Enslavers and broke their backs. Then killed them.

jlvfr said:

I'd say remove all ability to bombard, tbh. Then, boost the attack power, and drop defense to 1 (this things were really weak tin cans...)

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We made ours out of plywood and pine. Then again, we made ours for conditions out in the Pacific Ocean, not the wimpy Mediterranean.

rhodie said:

That is amazing but apart from the operational fluke, considering the cost of the torpedo against the truck, I think the Japanese won that round.

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The captain aimed at a Japanese freighter, and missed.

On slavery and slavers I recommend the following changes.

1. Eliminate the Slaver's Hut and Enslavers. Too many advantages.

2. Eliminate the penalty for the Slavery city improvement. The penalty is based on the modern perception of slavery, and doesn't really fit ancient times. make the bennie a 10% increase in productivity for the same shield cost, and make it obsolete with Industrialization.

I think that making enslavers NOT have hidden nationality might do the trick. Leave them invisible.

The only difference is: They cannot ravage everything in sight. If they want to kill a worker, fine; but it is then wartime. Is this reality? No, but it would work much better so AI doesn't get slaughtered.

Enslavers are the sole reason my Deity game was sooo easy. I feel Sid would be no different either... because nations cannot do anything (even with massive tech lead), if they can't access their resources, improve terrain, or settle land.

Now if AI was able to defend it's workers all the time, it would be great.

Here is another idea, if you wish to leave enslavers with HN and invisible. Have a building auto-produce 'immobile invisible unit lookouts' in towns and give them radar. Call them whatever; as time progresses they could be the Town Watch, Castle Guard, etc. That would not necessarily help in all cases, but would make it a bit tougher to simply stroll through enemy territory with no worries (In fact would make it very dangerous to go near a town, without using espinaoge to find out if they will be able to see you or not... a use for espinaoge! 2 good things in 1!).

Okay, I'm going to leave a detailed account of my game on SID.. no reloads, no nothing.. and it may give some good looks on what I see as very good and some things need a bit of tweaking.

BTW: Could you perhaps add the version number to the Scenario properties of the BIQ, or the name? I can't remember if I had the latest version in the right spot or not. Just a helpful little thing for us unorganized saps

Tom

tom2050 said:

Powerhungry maniacs always make themselves and their whole countries look bad!

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... Especially when they're low paid, poorly trained, vaguely indifferent, yet assured that the safety of the "Homeland" rests in their deep-fried food greasy hands ...

... Which is why I tend to mod "Bureaucracy" in ancient times as a Good Thing; not so much in the modern era ...

-Oz

vmxa said:

Something I never mentioned, but crossed my mind many times, is the ta da for wonders. I know you use the same one to save space, but I think it is a bit of a turn off, just to save a few MB.

Maybe 4 or 5 to alternate, would not be so harsh. There are so many wonders and that is what made it more annoying.

Click to expand...

Weasel Op said:

I found the wonder sound effect rather annoying too. Unfortunately there can be only one.

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Unfortunately, as Weasel OP posted, there can only be one wonder sound in a game. If you don´t like the wonder sound coming with CCM, you can simply delete that file and you would have the orginal wonder sound coming with Civ 3.

jlvfr said:

The historian in me has a complaint: torpedo boats should NOT be able to bombard! These TBs were barelly able to float, in some cases. What puny guns they had were simply to defend themselfs of other TBs. Therefore I believe you should remove bombardment from them

Click to expand...

jlvfr said:

I'd say remove all ability to bombard, tbh. Then, boost the attack power, and drop defense to 1 (this things were really weak tin cans...)

Click to expand...

Torpedoboats with a big attack factor would be too powerful as they are very quick and mostly could use that attack factor.

So at present I let the settings as they don´t have lethal land bombardement and therefore can´t kill landunits. That they can do damage to improvements of terrain and landunits is a hard-coded problem of Civ 3. As mythusmage said, if one is going to give a unit the ability to bombard units at sea, one must give the unit the ability to bombard units on land. In my eyes the current setting for torpedoeboats is better than to give these ships a big attack factor combined with a great mobility.

mythusmage said:

Then again, there is the story out of World War II in which an American sub, patrolling in the Philippines, torpedoed a Japanese truck on a beach front road.

Click to expand...

This is an amazing story mythusmage.

Always the enslaver. I remember the first posts about that unit when some civers were afraid that enslavers would be killed to easily as it is a HN unit and the AI always would do a big hunting on them. The posts below show, that these first thoughts about enslavers are obsolete:

vmxa said:

… I feel I need to lobby a bit for a removal of enslavers.

They are just too strong for humans. Get one and patrol the neighbor taking down workers and settlers. Just kills that nation. Maybe a real short life that does not start in the first age. Then you won't cripple them. To me they do more damage than armies.

Click to expand...

mythusmage said:

On slavery and slavers I recommend the following changes. Eliminate the Slaver's Hut and Enslavers. Too many advantages.

Click to expand...

tom2050 said:

I think that making enslavers NOT have hidden nationality might do the trick. Leave them invisible. The only difference is: They cannot ravage everything in sight. If they want to kill a worker, fine; but it is then wartime. Is this reality? No, but it would work much better so AI doesn't get slaughtered.

Enslavers are the sole reason my Deity game was sooo easy. I feel Sid would be no different either... because nations cannot do anything (even with massive tech lead), if they can't access their resources, improve terrain, or settle land.

Now if AI was able to defend it's workers all the time, it would be great.

Here is another idea, if you wish to leave enslavers with HN and invisible. Have a building auto-produce 'immobile invisible unit lookouts' in towns and give them radar. Call them whatever; as time progresses they could be the Town Watch, Castle Guard, etc. That would not necessarily help in all cases, but would make it a bit tougher to simply stroll through enemy territory with no worries (In fact would make it very dangerous to go near a town, without using espinaoge to find out if they will be able to see you or not... a use for espinaoge! 2 good things in 1!).

Click to expand...

Without doubt the enslaver is the most disputed unit in CCM. What is written above about the human use of enslavers crippling the AI economy is true. But don´t forget, the enslaver for the “poor haunted” AI has an option that human players don´t have and that also influences the game: The AI enslaver can capture cities without declaring war.

Is this all a reason to abolish that unit?

I say no. The enslaver is one of the most individual units in CCM and it will stay. Please remember that CCM was done with a gameplay by 31 civs in mind. What happens if a human player succeeds in crippling 3-5 civs in economy? 25-27 other civs will stay. Some AI civs will cripple other AI civs even by taking away cities from them with enslavers and got stronger. With this setting a player in CCM receives a bigger number of strong rival civs in the later phases of the game what in my eyes isn´t a bad thing. On the other hand, if the effect is turning to the other side as it is described in the posts above, something must be done.

One of the problems is, that there may be really too less workers in the game. At present the governments in CCM are not ready. Some of them get additional worker producing buildings (producing workers at different rates and may be in different qualities).

In the meantime the settings for the next version of the CCM biq are changed in the following way:

Worker production rate risen from 12 to 10 turns
Enslaver production dropped down from 10 to 12 turns
All kind of workers can detect invisible units (what goes in the direction of your suggestion Tom).

One more time thank you all very much for your input, your ideas and your suggestions.

tom2050 said:

Okay, I'm going to leave a detailed account of my game on SID.. no reloads, no nothing.. and it may give some good looks on what I see as very good and some things need a bit of tweaking.

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Tom I´m looking with great interest to the account of your game on SID and to your obervations and suggestions.

tom2050 said:

BTW: Could you perhaps add the version number to the Scenario properties of the BIQ, or the name? I can't remember if I had the latest version in the right spot or not. Just a helpful little thing for us unorganized saps
Tom

Click to expand...

Of course I will do that starting with the next version.

Okay, here is my game on SID. I have to say, this has been one of the most terrifyingly interesting games I have played. Although my account below does not give every aspect, I will explain here quickly:
Terrifying: This is because the AI still has HUGE tech lead, and I mean BIG! I know at any moment, that all could end, and thus it's a fight for survival every turn. I must keep on lookout everywhere, and react to things even if they seem they just might happen.
Interesting: The aspect that the AI cannot expand so much quicker than the human, gives me the opportunity to actual PLAY a SID game. It's incredible in some ways because although one can survive, you must use every tactic up your sleeve to actual survive and make progress; but it is possible (without Armies even).

Enslavers: Contrary to what I did in Deity, I have not been able to do so with Enslavers on SID level because: Every single good unit is VERY important to keep! Losing enslavers feels like a death blow. When enslavers are in enemy territory long enough, eventually they get killed over time. With the hordes of units other civ's possess, I have needed to keep these guys in MY territory, where I can pick off straggling units of any and all civ's. This helps keep their unit counts down ever so slightly. They are much more useful in this regard when facing such massive difficulties.

=============================================

CCM - Huge - Pangea - Raging Barbs - SID - Normal Aggression

4000BC - Start with goodyhut nextdoor, it pops a warrior! Yea! Decent starting location.. I build Worker Huts to get my workers going.
3800BC - Milan is created nearby. Researching Iron Working to get my Roman Legionaries.
3500BC - I meet Spain, and trade Bronze Working for Pottery.
3400BC - 1st Scout created, and begins exploring.
3300BC - Indians have built Temple of Artemis.
3150BC - Greeks build the Statue of Zeus.
3000BC - Canada builds the Pyramids. Persia builds the Temple of Baalbek. Dutch build the Colossus. Italy/Rome is not happy according to Lord McCauley! (They are content though)
2950BC - French build Stonehenge.
2900BC - Nubia builds the Oracle. I don't think small little Rome will be getting any Wonders
2850BC - Both my scouts have a look into peaceful barbarian villiages.. Neither ends up being peaceful, and only 1 scout can escape certain death.
2750BC - Another barb camp lets out 3 more barbarians.. this Scout is able to escape once again. 9 barbs now dwell to my immediate southeast.
2700BC - Naples is founded.
2660BC - Slavers Hut has been produced in Rome.. almost time for the fun to begin!
2500BC - A conscript Barbarian attacks my veteran warrior guarding 3 workers. The barb is dispatched easily... that definitely wasn't Conan! In other news, a stack of 10 Spanish warriors appeared directly south of Rome! They are probably heading for the other barbs to my SE, but my almost built Spearman will be tough for them if they attack me.
2420BC - My scout gets captured (by an Enslaver I'm guessing). My Enslavers should be coming soon.
2140BC - My first Enslaver has wiped out 2 Spanish warriors so far .
2100BC - Indians build World Religion Hinduism.
1740BC - 6 units destroyed, and not a single Slave yet! Hmmm... Nubia builds Hammurabi.
1660BC - Hebrew builds Solomon's Temple.
1620BC - China builds World Religion Buddhism.
1580BC - Germany builds World Religion Christianity. Babylon builds World Religion Islam.
1540BC - I can now build Legionaries, this will strengthen me considerably. Hebrew builds Jewish World Religion. 13 units destroyed by my 2 Enslavers, not a single slave yet... My only hope is to improve my land as fast as possible!
1460BC - Finally got a slave! and got a Great Leader , from Enslavers. French build the Hanging Gardens.
1420BC - Scandinavia build the Great Library. Greece builds the Great Lighthouse. Inca builds the Mausoleum of Mausollos.
1300BC - Germans build Silkroad.
1100BC - My Enslaver and his slaves are directly responsible for causing an unwanted war between me and the Spanish. Spanish were already furious with me (Why? Who knows... AI must know when your HN unit kills there units.. no other way; as nothing else has happened). I placed my fortified Enslaver in front of a Spanish Spearman; since that is the best way to kill them! I didn't realize AI was moving in a group. So after Spearman moved and lost the battle to me, several warriors in that 'group' also auto-moved to same location (attacking the slave my enslaver made) and causing war. Live and learn I suppose!
980BC - China builds Great Wall. Begin producing more Legionaries to slaughter the Spanish onslaught.
860BC - Inca builds the Colosseum. Seems there will be no slaughtering the onslaught, I fear I have absolutely no hope here! I need to try to make peace!
740BC - Sign Peace Treaty with Spain (give 37g 14g/turn). They had too many units. I lost many stupid battles also (Elite Legionary attacking regular warrior, etc). My best units got decimated! I will now solely build units and crush them later (even though the whole thing was my fault to begin with )
700BC - French build Hagia Sophia.
500BC - Turks build Dome of the Rock. Odd... after all the battles my Legionaries have won, no Golden Age (looks like it was removed... they gave Golden Age in my first 2 games with previous BIQ versions).
325BC - Hebrew builds Royal Tournament. REVENGE IS SWEET, Spanish troops are moving North by the hordes, and some through my territory (must be going after barbs). My Enslavers are making short work of the weaker ones, and even spearman. 1-2 units per turn destroyed. Although, I have lost a couple Enslavers unfortunately!
1 AD - French build Philosophers Stone. French build the Great Cathedral. Mongols build Hunnic Storm. India builds Ganges Pilgrimage.
150 AD - French build Art of Islam. French build Kaaba.
275 AD - French build Sacred Music.
375 AD - French build Hanseatic League.
400 AD - French build Jolly Roger.
450 AD - Russia builds the Vatican (damn Italy missed it - By a humungous long shot)!
600 AD - Israel builds Doge Palace.
675 AD - India builds Angkor Wat. Korea builds Potala Palace. I am Mass building units to the breaking point of being broke to attack Spain.
700 AD - French builds the Holy Book Printed.
950 AD - French builds Neuschwanstein.
975 AD - French build Taj Mahal.
1000 AD - French build the Great Playhouse. The French are absolutely scaring the living daylights out of me! I hope they are Far Far Away in a distant galaxy somewhere! I still have pretty much NONE of the map known, and I know only 5 civ's!
1025 AD - Aztecs build Mesoamerican Christianization.
1050 AD - Israel builds Leonardo's Workshop.
1150 AD - This is it! Although Spain is powerful, I need to expand before they become too powerful! I declare war this turn! Russia builds Newton's University.
1200 AD - Took Toledo, France with my 40 unit stack! Woo Hoo! I was able to get to Toledo while there weren't many units around (all are elsewhere), they only had 3 defenders. Many units are converging on Bologna, which is north of Toledo. I assumed they would do this, so I have a nice stack of units there to defend it.
1220 AD - Although Spain has significant advantages... I have been careful in the assault and i am able to counter the advantage somewhat effectively... primarily because of my Legionaries! These are invaluable, they do double duty as Spearman and as swordsman, and they are cheap. I am fighting Pikeman, Knights, and Catapults here, but Knights even lose to these guys on occasion. I can spit them out pretty quickly, so I have large numbers of them. War Elephants are my best units right now, and their extra hitpoint makes a HUGE difference!
1230 AD - OMG! Spain is willing to go to peace and give ME a tech! Although that sounds like a great idea, I would prefer not to (because 1 tech is insignificant to how far I am behind). To succeed in the long run, I need cities and lots of troops! I say no!
1240 AD - Israel builds Copernicus' Observatory.
1250 AD - Alot of Spains power seems to be in Pikemen. They have been hording them up south to less protected areas it seems (avoiding my War Elephants). I have diverted some unused Chariots and Horsemen there to prevent them from destroying improvements. I have been on defensive so far during onslaught, but will be going on an offensive counterstrike soon.
** If I can capture enough cities, I can leave inner circle relatively unprotected, which will let me mass units on my border. Before the war with Spain, my small country did not have an inner circle in which I could do so.

Screenshot of empire as of 1250 AD.


I am glad you said alliances were taken out ?? I think.. this actually gives me a chance from being ganged up on!

Tom