Mercurians and Infernal

fuzzy_bunnies said:

Well, I was more referring to if you play kurio and go on a conquering spree, the enemy cities become settlements, right? wouldn't it be better to give all the settlements to the Mercurians instead so they can become cities for you to share? I think thats what TheGreatSteve was saying... just wondering how it works in practice.

Click to expand...

I've been doing something like that in my current game--gifting all the cities (settlements) that I conquer to Flauros, Phaedra, and Basium, my vassals. They are now several times larger than they were when the entered vassalhood, but haven't declared independence. I wonder if perhaps they like my protection too much.

I also gave a lot to the Bannor, since they are good chums of mine and aren't at war with the same civs I'm fighting, so it seems to keep the cities from getting reconquered by their previous owners if I move all my units out and on to the next target (since my vassals are also at war with the former owners, I sometimes don't gift the frontline cities to the vassals).

Basium seems happy with the additions, but in more than a few occasions he has lost the cities I gave him because they flipped to a neighbor. He doesn't seem very good at expanding the cultural borders, especially this late in the game when the neighbors have enough culture built up that the cities are often immediately enveloped by the neighbors--one city immediately turned into a 1-tile island, and promptly flipped to the enveloping neighbor >20 turns later.

Are you certain it was from their casting the Worldspell, and not from you constructing one of the last 2 Levels of the Altar? Eventually any Evil Civ not at War already will Declare war on you for having too high level of an Altar.

This might be a stupd question, but I haven't checked in a while, but are non-Angelic Mecurian units living, and if so, do you (Basium) get angels when they die?

Yes, all units that are normally alive are still alive under Mercurian control. Also, all living units under Mercurian control will return as angels, even those that meet the requirements to return as Manes (they return as both).

Step1: start a new game
Step2: in the game options, scroll down until you see "compact enforced"
Step3: check that box
Step4: ????
Step5: PROFIT!

Not checking the code right now, but as I recall, there is a CHANCE to trigger the gifting of an Angel to Basium when a qualified living unit from another Civ dies. It is GUARANTEED to trigger the gifting of an Angel to Basium when one of his own living units dies (so you can spam and cannon fodder/delete scouts or whatever his cheapest living unit is to gain angels).


That said, the gifting process for an Angel includes another random check if I remember the code correctly. It is a generous check, but still you won't get a direct 1 to 1 return on your own living units, but a far better yield than you get for other player's units.

EDIT: Yeah, majorly ninja-posted on that one, though in this case the Ninja could have been Chris Farley since I was out coding and debugging for a couple hours with the page up

I haven't played the Mercurians in some time (the bizarre ally AI they use and the tech hit is why), but I am finding them a lot tougher opponent now since the Angels got the weapons promotion. I don't know if they can get Mithril, but a bunch of them fairly early with Iron Weapons can be problematic.

If you are playing in a game with lots of Good and Neutral AI civs at war, Basium's army will really grow and you will get those Angels spammed at you in bunches. They are often led by high-XP Angels who have risen after a powerful living unit croaked. Also, some of his later game units are fairly powerful.

It might be time to try them again and just put up with the then lousy AI of your former civ and the tech hit.

I think playing as both the Infernals and Mercurials is great. However, I think you are HUGELY discouraged to summon either of them if you aren't going to switch to them.

In the case of the Infernals, why would you summon someone who is going to at some point eat your city, and might not even ally with you anyway?

In the case of the Mercurials, why would you sacrifice one of your good production cities in exchange for a bunch of wars, a reduced tech rate, and an ally to stupid to do anything useful?

There should be more incentive to summon the two civs without switching to them, IMO.

MaxAstro said:

I think playing as both the Infernals and Mercurials is great. However, I think you are HUGELY discouraged to summon either of them if you aren't going to switch to them.

In the case of the Infernals, why would you summon someone who is going to at some point eat your city, and might not even ally with you anyway?

In the case of the Mercurials, why would you sacrifice one of your good production cities in exchange for a bunch of wars, a reduced tech rate, and an ally to stupid to do anything useful?

There should be more incentive to summon the two civs without switching to them, IMO.

Click to expand...

Very well said!

I never play the Infernals, but you are right on with your comments about the Mercurians. If I am thinking of building them, though, I try to set aside one city that I will build the Mercurian Gate in with each game I play. In my last few games, however, the AI has always beaten me to the Gate. This doesn't upset me too much though for the reasons you gave.

Still, I agree that there is just not much of an incentive to summon either. I guess that is why the Infernals and Mercurians always score low in favorite civ polls.

MaxAstro said:

I think playing as both the Infernals and Mercurials is great. However, I think you are HUGELY discouraged to summon either of them if you aren't going to switch to them.

In the case of the Infernals, why would you summon someone who is going to at some point eat your city, and might not even ally with you anyway?

In the case of the Mercurials, why would you sacrifice one of your good production cities in exchange for a bunch of wars, a reduced tech rate, and an ally to stupid to do anything useful?

There should be more incentive to summon the two civs without switching to them, IMO.

Click to expand...

With the Mercurians you have options. Your first choice is whether to give them a landlocked city or a port. If you give them a landlocked city, they won't get very far. If you give them a port, they'll declare war a lot but will transport their powerful units to help you.

Basium also gives you an extra vote in the overcouncil -- Malakim can get a fourth vote that way (2 heroes plus 1 vote)

Also, when your units die, they get recycled (?) as angels.

Finally, if you don't summon the Mercurians, someone else will. It would be bad to have to kill them, both because it's difficult and because it increases the AC.

Researching Infernal Pact has a lot of its own benefits aside from the Infernals arriving tin the world- Sacrifice the Weak is the obvious one, and makes researching the tech worthwhile on its own. I'll also occasionally summon Hyborem as an emergency escape if the AC rose too fast for me to deal with it and I don't want to stop playing the game.

agreed with MaxAstro, if you're going to play them it's always nice to summon them, but if you aren't, there's not a lot of use in that, especially for the mercurians imho. maybe that permanent alliance should be changed with something else so that you don't get a heavy tech hit? that would make quite a lot of difference.

xienwolf said:

Are you certain it was from their casting the Worldspell, and not from you constructing one of the last 2 Levels of the Altar? Eventually any Evil Civ not at War already will Declare war on you for having too high level of an Altar.

Click to expand...

Yes, I'm pretty sure. I made the second to last level of the altar after Basium was summoned.

xienwolf said:

Are you certain it was from their casting the Worldspell, and not from you constructing one of the last 2 Levels of the Altar? Eventually any Evil Civ not at War already will Declare war on you for having too high level of an Altar.

Click to expand...

Xienwolf, this didn't happen in my last game - a rare Altar victory for the Order/Good Calibim.

Hyborem, Sheelba, and Mahala were all in the game as Evil civs and none declared war on me when I built Altar VI. It was about 40 turns before I built the final Altar, and no wars.

I'm playing an Octopus Overlord Basium now, I didn't even know I could. It's going to be fun.

Ok. I'm glad I'm not insane.

I'd not had the chance to do the compact-duelers before and i've tride them both.

Hybroem is a blast to play because you can just "forget" your previous civ and start wacking away for some good old fashioned carnage. Nuff said.

Basium takes a hell of a lot longer to get out - is much more of an investment, and isnt much use once he's around in the world. Yeah he might be badass with his angels against demons, but hordes of armed mail warriors bearing steal and he goes down in a whimper (including his angels.)


I Think the key is this: Manes and Angels.

Manes is a unique inciteful and fun alternative to the core of the game - which is building. Manes are about death - something had to die for you to profit. That profit is useable in units or in population points - so it goes anywhere you need it, they are the 'currency' of the Infernals - and they're FUN.

Basium's angels? Well they mostly just sit - becuase they're in an inconvenient part of the world (to keep safe enough to actually build the damnable gate - irony intended.) Once he's there you actually have to work with what you had previously (which could be construted as a boon, but really it becomes shared space, since food/health/wealth, etc matters - you're down all those bonus resources you had. The infernals just shrug it off and keep going. Basium enters essentially in a very very very late game start.

The MECHANIC is what's fun.


So, my modest Compact Proposal:



Angels and Manes

Infernals get manes.
Mercurians get angels.

Manes are recieved upon death of a "evil" unit - in the Infernal capital city (Only - this is a change)
Angels are recieved upon death of a "good" unit - in the Mercurian capital city. (Only)

Manes have crappish combat abilities.
Angels have Decent (Champion Level) combat abilites and can fly (over ocean - new)

Manes may be used to purchase population points. (In the capital only - new)
Manes may be used to purchase immediate units.
Manes may be used to purchase technology (new).
Manes may be sacrificed to 'enhance' other units. (new?)
Manes may be sacrificed to speed production of some buildings. (new)

Angels may be added to a city as a special "Angel" specialist. (new)
Angels may "draft" up to three units from ANY Order city, or 1 from any good alligned city of any civ the mercurians are not at war with. (new)
Angels may enter any territory. (new)
Angels automatically have the Commando promotion.
Angels may 'siphon energy' from mana nodes directly. - If on a mana-tile, they each may aquire any single second level spell (divine or sorcery) of that mana type. They have this spell until they use it. They may only have one spell at a time.

Conversion:
Manes or mane-enhanced units have a 66% chance of 'corupting' any soul they kill. A corrupted soul is a free mane at the capital.
Angels have an inate 33% chance to 'redeem' any soul they kill. A redeemed soul is a free angel at the capital.

****
Mercurians vs Infernals.

Start and play style:

Infernals
The infernals (as now) start with a potent army and an urge to use it. They use their army to establish a base, and then start slaying things. Coupled with mane-enhanced units and evil things dying in the world, they're steady supply of manes ensures a heafty supply of the much needed resource.

*Gains in this version*
Manes can be used for significant research advance. This mitigates the tech disadvantage of "outposts". (More on that later.)
Manes can be used to 'enhance.' Other units. I see this as a chaotic prospect. There's new promotions Mane-enhancement. The first adds 1 unholy damage and 66% chance to corrupt. Additionally, manes can be used to artificially inflate the units XP (like vampires.)
Manes may be sacrificed in 'outposts' to speed the production of their unique 'claim' building.

Mercurians
The Mercuirans are brought into the world as they are now, via a portal and time and effort by a good aligned 'friend.' However. Unlike the normal dynamics of play, these Mercurians will have a 'heven on earth' manner of city building. Instead of operating a normal civ that's simply allied with the friend who summoned, the Mercurians will turn the Gate-city into an all-powerful Powerhouse of holy might. Dedicated to eradicating evil wherever it lies.

The Mercurian Capital city will operate as a normal city would, with the following exceptions:

-There are never any unhappy people.
-Happifaces add directly to food.
-There are never any unhealthy people.
-Health bonii add directly to food.

3 New Specialists.
Savant -These replace "citizens." And give 1 and 1 (general)
Aesthetic - These are another replacement for "citizens" And give 1 and 1 (essentially a cheapish citizen)
Angel - These can only be added by angels and give: 3 and 1 xp (to each unit built in the city)

Mercurians may have unlimited numbers of any of these 3 new specialists, as they either replace common citizenry (unlimited) or are gained by angels.


***
Captial-city bout.


The idea here is that the game for these two entities should revolve solely around conflict and less about the building stages (something you've already done to get to them. And they should each be "entire civs" unto themselves with only 1 city to each of them.

In this, they get their super powerful abilities but only so long as they have their captial. All other cities conquered must either be razed (which helps the other side's number count) or "squelched" via containment.

Outposts:
Both the infernals and the Mercurians cannot 'hold land.' Like the Kuriotates they turn things into "settlements" - but with a big exception.

Each side has a unique building that may only be built in settlements. This building may be sped up by Manes. But the Mercurians have to build them the long and hard way.

Once complete, each building affords their side 5 additional resource units (manes or angels) and makes the city terrain "impassable." (This removes all units in the city as well) The outpost then becomes a "Ley Line." And is untransformable for the rest of the game. Each ley line identifies itself as 'claimed' to the faction that claimed it.

Upon claiming, a leyline moves the Armageddon Counter up or down, depending on who claimed it.

***
Ultimate Consequences


New Armegeddon Counter rules.
If, after BOTH the Infernals and Mercurians enter play, the AC reaches either 0% or 100% victory is declared.

If 0 AC is reached. Basium and mortals have successfully banished Hyborem forever from Erebus. This has the consequence of removing both factions from play - ending in victory for Basium (if played). Or a permanent Golden Age for the ally.

If 100 AC is reached. Armegeddon commeth.
All factions permanently declare war on all factions.
Hybroem gains 20 manes and enters a permanent Golden Age.
All Demon units gain the "Ultimate Corruption" promotion - which gives a +2 unholy damage and 100% chance to corrupt on kill to the unit.
All cities without Ashen Vale gain 5 unhappiness.
Other than Hybroem, World Spells may not be used.
Hybroem's World spell may be used once every 20 turns.


********
ADDED:
On Death.

If either Basium or Hybroem are killed during the course of play (and only if BOTH are in the game), the Armegeddon Counter is instantly moved 50 points accordingly. If only one or the other has entered play on death, it's a AC adjustment of only 10.

Note that reducing to 0 results in a more 'immediate win' than does 100. However, since the Infernals can speed their leylines along - it's made up for.

*****************************************


Notes:


The idea behind THIS idea - was to make the Mercurians fun. As it is, the Infernals are fun because they change the way you play. The resources are different, the style is aggressive and not passive, etc.

The mercurians bog up much of their benefits with getting them into the world, and once there - they're no real impetus to expand.

Reducing these two powerhouses to captial's and a more Real Time albeitturnbased strategy for the two.

Just thoughts.

Digest and discuss.
-Qes

EDIT/PS:

Kael said:

That can't be QES, it was only 3 sentances.

Click to expand...

Is this more to the length of your expectations?

The Evil civs need to be at peace with everyone else to declare on you. So quite frequently it doesn't happen.

QES, that was a very interesting post with many great ideas!

Something really needs to be done to make those two civs more interesting enough to play. I think you are right on with your comments.

I used to play the Mercurians frequently, but I stopped for two reasons:

1. The hit your research takes when Basium comes on board. In no time at all the AI is fielding Tier IV units while you are taking 85 turns to research Iron Working.

2. When you build the Mercurian Gate, you can be doomed if you play the Mercurians or your old civ. Why? Either way you ally's AI is just horrible. Having to deal with that makes you want to strangle that cyber ally.

I think these two 'features' need addressing before I would beeline the Mercurian Gate or whatever it is that summons Hyborem.

BTW, how would you treat dead units from Neutral civs and barbarians? Right now it is a little confusing.

Thanks again for a great post!

Sarisin said:

QES, that was a very interesting post with many great ideas!

Something really needs to be done to make those two civs more interesting enough to play. I think you are right on with your comments.

I used to play the Mercurians frequently, but I stopped for two reasons:

1. The hit your research takes when Basium comes on board. In no time at all the AI is fielding Tier IV units while you are taking 85 turns to research Iron Working.

2. When you build the Mercurian Gate, you can be doomed if you play the Mercurians or your old civ. Why? Either way you ally's AI is just horrible. Having to deal with that makes you want to strangle that cyber ally.

I think these two 'features' need addressing before I would beeline the Mercurian Gate or whatever it is that summons Hyborem.

BTW, how would you treat dead units from Neutral civs and barbarians? Right now it is a little confusing.

Thanks again for a great post!

Click to expand...

Well, if 'restricted to a capital city' and the rest of the world is just a big battlefield - the good guys can afford ONE good city. And Hybroem has to fight to get one - so either way, it balances.

I strongly feel that the capital city should be "enough" for either of them. As long as they have manes/angels in ready supply - their city can outfit them with everything they need to be potent (even an AI can understand 'here's more units, go kill things'.)

I do understand and think that Basium SHOULD be allied and maintained thusly as he is now. There should be that aspect. But if he's just sitting in one city and lobbing angle bombs at your foes and not taking up much space - you're not gonna complain.

I should point out that neither side should be able to produce settlers. (Workers sure.)

Barbarians and neutrals? Well that's where the 'conversion' idea comes in.

For Angels - 1/3 of those they kill will come back as ...MORE angels, regardless of whom it is that died. For mane-enhanced demons or manes themselves - that's 2/3s of all their kills. This opens up all those middle grounders to participating whether they like it or not.

ALSO - Hybroem should not be allied with the barbarians. That frustrated me that i couldnt take a barbarian city even though i know i'd have made better use out of it.


-Qes

wow, I am overwhelmed by QES' post, so many good ideas there. little suggestion: since angels and order religion are obsessed with social order, it would be nice if "angel" specialists provided a decreased maintainance cost in the city they're in ( cumulative of course) . that way they could even conquer a city far, far away from their own territory and still get away with it nicely ( maintenance-wise) , could be a nice unique ability.