Riders of Lost Ark

Calouste · May 5, 2013

Louis XXIV said:
If I had to make stuff up:

Steal the left half of the commerce tree:
+1 Movement and +1 sight range for naval combat units. A Great Admiral appears. +2 Movement for all Great Admirals.
+3 Production in coastal Cities

Starter: Doubles benefits/discovery bonuses from Natural Wonders
Speed production of Archaeologists
+ 1 sight for all units (this would stack with America's ability and stacks with the naval units)
Reduced unhappiness for cities settled on different continents
Finisher: Hidden Archaeological dig sites revealed

That's completely random and made up. I could probably make up more if I thought about it some more.

So, if you are on a Pangea map, do you think this tree is a worthwhile investment? I don't think so.

Most of the arguments I have seen so far for a late availability of the Exploration tree have pretty much come down to the name being related to the "Age of Exploration", without much thought about how the tree would work.

I assume btw that you give Spain a different UA with that opener, otherwise they would be rather overpowered with 6 food 15 gold tiles and the like.

My Exploration tree would be something like this:
Opener: Can build Scouts. One free Scout.
+1 culture for each Natural Wonder discovered
Ancient ruins yield two bonuses to Scouts.
City state discovery bonuses doubled.
+1 Movement and +1 sight range for naval combat units. A Great Admiral appears. +2 Movement for all Great Admirals.
Archeologists unaffected by Closed Borders
Finisher: as already confirmed

MARDUK80 · May 6, 2013

Great suggestions.

A few quickly tinkered exploration ideas in pioneer spirit that sprung in to my mind this morning:

- Units gain small amount of experience from every tile they explore.
- Caravels gain culture from every tile they explore.
- Scouts can be used to found cities.
- Scouts can build improvements (as embarged work boat impr).
- Scouts can be upgraded to military units.
- Forts act as Outposts as well. Gaining +1 to Line of Sight and increase in Zone of Control.
- +1 Global Happiness and Science from every Embassy.

Bevel Lemelisk · May 6, 2013

MARDUK80 said:
Yeah, Archaeology accompanied with the new Exploration SP sounds so cool! and I really like the "Indiana Jones" look on the archaeologist unit.

I think they (devs) really nailed the improvements to the game with this expansion. Religion and Espionage were kind of standart (seen before) mechanics but BNW stuff Great Works, Archaeology etc. are really innovative additions. Not to say G&K wasn't a great expansion which it was by all standarts.

Can't wait to get my hands on it. This is the first time I look forward more the new game mechanics than new Civs.

Id also say that weather they are historical or not, i think the archaeological finds should be interesting. I could see them being religious items, even some from scientific achievements (Tesla's lab maybe?)

But with some depending on early events in game does that mean we need to make sure we have battles with barbarians and the AI early in game?

Gucumatz · May 6, 2013

Calouste said:
So, if you are on a Pangea map, do you think this tree is a worthwhile investment? I don't think so.

Most of the arguments I have seen so far for a late availability of the Exploration tree have pretty much come down to the name being related to the "Age of Exploration", without much thought about how the tree would work.

I assume btw that you give Spain a different UA with that opener, otherwise they would be rather overpowered with 6 food 15 gold tiles and the like.

My Exploration tree would be something like this:
Opener: Can build Scouts. One free Scout.
+1 culture for each Natural Wonder discovered
Ancient ruins yield two bonuses to Scouts.
City state discovery bonuses doubled.
+1 Movement and +1 sight range for naval combat units. A Great Admiral appears. +2 Movement for all Great Admirals.
Archeologists unaffected by Closed Borders
Finisher: as already confirmed

Those are pretty bad imo. When would exploration be opened? Unlocking the policies regarding ruins/city state discovery means by the time those policies are unlocked, a majority of those things (ruins city state discoveries) would have been done. And +1 culture for Natural wonder discovery is incredibly weak compared to many other policies in other trees.
======

Anyone think that perhaps with Exploration we could be getting scurvy? I know its extremely unlikely at the moment, but we have had it in scenarios and it would be something to balance the OP nature of naval warfare atm.

A couple suggestions I would make:

Opener: [I do like the scout opener idea though] - Can build Scouts and Explorers (later on). One free scout and every natural wonder discovery provides +1 culture per turn

Policies:
Civilian units become invisible to other players unless a unit is next to it. Attrition reduced by half.

Natural wonders produce half their total yield in tourism as well.

Ruins, Archaeological Sites, and Barbarian Camps have 75% of double yield. + A one time bonus of tourism for capture/discovery/working of

+1 movement and sight for naval units. Free Great admiral. Great Admirals have +2 movement. Great Admiral can build minefields in industrial era

Every tile under your line of sight reduces culture cost for policies/ideologies

Finisher: Units receive +1 movement and gain free Survivalism promotion. Tiles on different landmasses than capital provide double yield.

Would be a rough idea of how I would make it

MARDUK80 · May 7, 2013

Bevel Lemelisk said:
Id also say that weather they are historical or not, i think the archaeological finds should be interesting. I could see them being religious items, even some from scientific achievements (Tesla's lab maybe?)

But with some depending on early events in game does that mean we need to make sure we have battles with barbarians and the AI early in game?

Agreed. Like Tutankhamun's Mask and such. Something to remind about great Nikola Tesla would be awesome as well.

Yes, it would seem Civs like German, Songhai and Ottomans might have a small advantage on this. Since you usually go with Honor SP and after the barbarians with these three. So they would have more Antiquity Sites near them. Another plus for these Civs.

Calouste · May 7, 2013

Gucumatz said:
Those are pretty bad imo. When would exploration be opened? Unlocking the policies regarding ruins/city state discovery means by the time those policies are unlocked, a majority of those things (ruins city state discoveries) would have been done. And +1 culture for Natural wonder discovery is incredibly weak compared to many other policies in other trees.
======

Anyone think that perhaps with Exploration we could be getting scurvy? I know its extremely unlikely at the moment, but we have had it in scenarios and it would be something to balance the OP nature of naval warfare atm.

A couple suggestions I would make:

Opener: [I do like the scout opener idea though] - Can build Scouts and Explorers (later on). One free scout and every natural wonder discovery provides +1 culture per turn

Policies:
Civilian units become invisible to other players unless a unit is next to it. Attrition reduced by half.

Natural wonders produce half their total yield in tourism as well.

Ruins, Archaeological Sites, and Barbarian Camps have 75% of double yield. + A one time bonus of tourism for capture/discovery/working of

+1 movement and sight for naval units. Free Great admiral. Great Admirals have +2 movement. Great Admiral can build minefields in industrial era

Every tile under your line of sight reduces culture cost for policies/ideologies

Finisher: Units receive +1 movement and gain free Survivalism promotion. Tiles on different landmasses than capital provide double yield.

Would be a rough idea of how I would make it

The tree would be available from the start. And the discovery of a Natural Wonder would add 1 culture per turn for the empire (in addition to the existing happiness), which is somewhat comparable to Liberty's current opener.

And most likely you will be able to get more policies in BNW, otherwise Poland's UA looks overpowered.

Uberfrog · May 7, 2013

I really don't like the idea of having Scouts restricted to the policy tree. Be forced to take a certain policy or severely hamper your early-game exploration? No thanks.

Besides, a policy tree should have lasting benefits throughout the game. If half the Exploration tree is for ruins and first-time discoveries of NWs and CSs, that half of the tree is effectively doing nothing at all for most of the game. Hard to see how it would be competitive with the other early trees (unless, of course, you force people to open it to build Scouts

).

Calouste · May 7, 2013

Uberfrog said:
I really don't like the idea of having Scouts restricted to the policy tree. Be forced to take a certain policy or severely hamper your early-game exploration? No thanks.

Besides, a policy tree should have lasting benefits throughout the game. If half the Exploration tree is for ruins and first-time discoveries of NWs and CSs, that half of the tree is effectively doing nothing at all for most of the game. Hard to see how it would be competitive with the other early trees (unless, of course, you force people to open it to build Scouts ).

All the three Ancient trees now have effects that are worth hardly anything in the late game, like +1 culture per city, cheaper Settlers, bonus against Barbarians, 3 culture for your capital. It's a matter of making the most of those policies while they are available and before they are superseded by later trees. And just like you have to work for gold in BNW by setting up trade routes, you might have to work for exploration by using a social policy. You for example get a better chance of a good Pantheon if you hit a religious city state early, and you have double the chance to get Faith from an Ancient Ruin.

Oh, and there are other maps than Pangea, give them a go sometime.

mitsho · May 7, 2013

Is there a need for another ancient era tree? (and if there were, a free scout with maybe a free retreat promotion coupled with double yields from meeting CS sounds fine as an opener).

I really don't think so as the early game is a) busy with decisions already, b) the 3 opening trees have been balanced quite thouroughly, no need to bring something new in and c) you want to move on to later trees, no? Given as it seems that Aesthetics will be another classical tree AND that the Exploration Finisher seems to be tourism/archaeology related, I rather see it as a Renaissance tree. (Otherwise, Rationalism would be the last policy tree, right?)

I can see it filled with 2 more naval based exploration and "wide" oriented policies, 1 land based exploration feature, 2-3 archeology policies and 1-2 "other" policies that tend to fill up the trees (i.e. a culture or science bonus). [Yes, I coun't Opener and Finisher as policies]

Riders of Lost Ark

Calouste

Deity

MARDUK80

Prince

Bevel Lemelisk

Chieftain

Gucumatz

JS, secretly Rod Serling

MARDUK80

Prince

Calouste

Deity

Uberfrog

Deity

Calouste

Deity

mitsho

Deity

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