News: Game of the month for Civ V - feedback appreciated

No promises of magic and no guarantees of medal-winning, but here you can find a spreadsheet about the various AIs' Personalities in the game.

Defence rests. :lol:

Besides the Great Person Tech Preferences link that godotnut provided, it's probably the reference that I utilise the most for my games.

It's up to you to figure out how you would apply this knowledge, and many players already attest to actively looking at this kind of info (derived from the XML) when they play, so it's probably nothing new for many players.

Players who use such reference are in the Excel category.... no problem but they are not playing the Ironman rules.

@ Keath: I have a lot of the most important info from the link that I provided already memorized, so I would qualify for the Ironman competition, but I would also have access to this knowledge in my memory that another player might not have, because they'd have to look it up as they played.

How would you suggest to resolve this discrepancy for your proposed Ironman challenge?

If you have memorized this then more power to you. If you don't reference the spreadsheet during gameplay then you are still eligible for Ironman submission. If Kasparov had memorized the opening he chose, he might not have lost the contest against Deep Blue.
 
Sure, but you normally define "mano a mano" with respect to your competitors, not against the playing field.

I realize that 'mano a mano' is often misused and I may have used it incorrectly. However, when I am playing the game, my competition is the combined AI. When and if I submit, then I am comparing my results with the rest of the submitters. If my competitors were the other contestants, wouldn't I have to go online and play Multiplayer? :confused:
 
2. I would like to see a discussion thread about the game design. First the map maker would describe what he was trying to achieve, why he selected the AIs, the map, and game settings. What changes he made to the map. etc Then the players would comment on how his objective were satisfied.
I've wanted this for a while, but with Pre, Post, and Results threads, it could be too much to add another. Maybe have the map maker put a commentary in the results thread.

Maybe this is a good time to repost the idea about two types of GOTMs:
1) with unmodified or minimally modified map, and
2) with heavily modified map

I really like the idea (especially when civ V first comes out) of playing "vanilla" maps that are just like those rolled up when you are playing your own games.

But I also really enjoy the scenarios and modifications that the mapmakers come up with.

I think having these two types of maps in the GOTMs would give us the best of both worlds.
 
when I am playing the game, my competition is the combined AI.

No. You don't get GOTM points and prizes for doing better than the AI. You get them for doing better than the other players. The AI is, or should be, a constant factor for all players.

"You don't have to be able to run faster than the bear - just faster than the others that the bear is chasing." (Punchline from an old joke :))

Your comparison with the human/computer chess match relates to your personal single player games, but is not valid as a model for GOTMs. An equivalent in chess terms would be a bunch of players each playing the same computer, and then being ranked on their relative performances.

But there's a limit to this analogy, because chess is a game of perfect information. Civ is, or should be, a game with hidden information including the random RNG rolls and cloaked map details. Note that your "Freestyle" category would remove this entire level of mystery by allowing replays, making it an completely different game with no ability to compare performances.
 
I have to say, well done to Keath for coming up with new ideas. He is totally right that this should be a forum with no taboo's.

Having said that, "Freestyle" is a really bad idea, as it allows you to make bad strategies work.
As many people have said, you learn better by not being able to reload.

I will say it again, you cannot punish people for learning the game. Spreadsheets or not.
 
It is after midnight and this is probably nuts, but I have a possible partial compromise (or at least partial point of agreement) with Keath. I haven't changed my opposition to reloading, but after further thought I'm wondering if it may not be a good idea to consider opening a thread and/or even a secondary competition for "Non-1st Attempt Games."

Here is the case: One thing that consistently gives me pause about the xOTM competitions is how easy it is for players to fudge the rules by pre-veiwing (or even "dry-running") the games on computers other than their own. Long time players of the xOTM will remember at least several times in the past when it has become obvious even from posts in the pre-game threads that some players have probably fudged the bit in the rules about "You may not reload the game from any previous save file or an autosave file, including the Start file, in order to replay and change any events that occur in the game. Reloading gives you an artificial knowledge of future events..." (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/1st_visit.php#rules). The fact is that peaking into the game on a public computer or some other untraceable platform is easy to do, and sometimes the xOTM awards get uncomfortably close to looking more like "best possible game" awards than "best played games under conditions of uncertainty" awards. Of course, when pre-game posters reveal knowledge about map characteristics that should be unknowable to anyone playing by the rules it is a dead giveaway of something going wrong on this point, but maybe there is a better way to deal with this kind of thing.

For one thing, I think many players are curious about and find it interesting to know what the "best possible" way to play a game is. Okay, Civ is not Chess -- let's get that absolutely straight. There have been a lot of inappropriate comparisons between the two games thrown around these boards lately. Simply put, Chess is "bounded," or "logically perfect," in a way that Civ is not and never can be. One simply cannot know what the "correct" move in Civ "should have been" in the same way that one can know it (or "approach it") in chess. The "correct" move in Civ (as in Chess) is the one that wins... but winning Civ battles depends on probabilities in ways that NEVER apply to ANY battle in Chess... not even a tiny little bit. Still, Civ players, I think, would like to know what the fastest possible conquest or space race victory on a given map would be. Put that together with the lure of winning an award and, presto, you have the temptation in place to lure players into "peeking" into maps and/or replaying starting saves on different computers in order to get "more perfect" results.

Although I confess to being somewhat put out by these kinds of submissions, I don't actually hate them. The fact is that it IS interesting to know how the "perfect" (or "more perfect") game might be played on a given map. Still, I am also very much interested in the "romantic" style of competition that comes with a first-time experience of any given map -- the kind of competition that the xOTM is actually advertised to be. (And at least partially the kind of competition that I think Keath is longing for too.) Many, if not most of best xOTM players do appear to live by these rules and make the xOTM the experience it was intended to be. The surprising thing is that most months it actually does seem to work out as advertised. But wouldn't it be better to honor both kinds of endeavors with separate sets of awards?

Why not have two sets of awards, one for "first-time" games and one that honors an infinite number of starting save reloads? (Still no reloads in the middle of the game though.) Participation might be increased by encouraging players to submit games in the "Non-1st-Attempt Game" category even after their first (second, or third) gamble went wrong without damaging the "1st-Time" competitive results. In fact, the xOTM awards might be cleaner for giving "replay" players a way to show their solutions without contaminating the "1st-Timer" competition results. Perhaps creative names could be dreamed up for each category, like "Classic xOTM" and "Reflective xOTM" (or "Analytic xOTM"). That way you could have both a "Classic Fastest Domination" and a "Reflective/Analytic Fastest Domination" award. By providing both types of games with awards and asking players who have had any kind of pre-knowlege of the map to restrict their submissions to the "Reflective/Analytic" category it might both keep the "Classic" submission category cleaner and at the same time encourage more total submissions and overall participation. In fact, players could even submit a game in each category if they wanted -- which would increase the overall number of submissions significantly right away. It also would continue to help new players break the "reload habit" by not allowing any reloads except the repeated "starting save" reloads. Midgame reloads would still be Taboo and, more importantly, would be consistently enforceable through checking via the HOF mod. Participation in the spoilers might also be enhanced by opening a "Reflective/Analytic" thread for players to comment about replayed games and alternative strategies that could be attempted again and again to fully explore the possibilities of interesting games and situations. In fact, I can recall several times when excellent players have already asked for such a thread to be opened for discussions like this in past xOTMs. Surely that kind of high quality discussion would be good for the community as a whole too?

Okay, maybe it is a crazy idea... but if Keath can get away with raising all kinds of wild-eyed ideas here then I guess I should be able to go a little nuts too. :crazyeye: Time for bed... :sleep:
 
I play using Steam, and this caused me to think -

If we continue to use a HOF mod under Civ5, then how about getting the HOF mod itself to submit the saves to CivFanatics on exit / autosave? This would potentially stop one theoretical attack on the HOF mod's reload detection. It would also have a few interesting side-effects:

* all games, including incomplete and losses are automatically submitted.
* processing the submitted files can give a complete log of all moves in your game
* comparisons can be made at interesting points in the game, without just hoping people submit intermediate saves around the same time.
* there's a log of when you reached 500AD, etc to quietly cross-check for people reading the spoilers ahead of time. (Might not actually want to prosecute this one though, given the "Warning don't read this" post is only accessible by clicking on the thread, so many new players will stumble into the thread the first time!)
 
That would be yet one more method of recognizing a player's efforts to improve, giving them positive encouragement, without anyone else feeling bitter about the awarding of an extremely subjective "most improved" Award.

I don't see why the "most improved" award has to be subjective. I think a fairly easy statistical program could be written to track this information, so that it is strictly mathematical. There should be a minimum number of submissions by a player before qualification.

I'll go on record here as opposing this reloading nonsense. I don't get that at all. Play the game how it should be played and submit. If you want to try out different strategies are whatever, replay the game at your leisure later. Obviously, the replays won't count. I think many of us here have replayed a GOTM for fun to try a different approach.
 
Okay, you have all convinced me - reloading is detrimental to learning and allowing it is a step backwards. :faint: Maybe there is a better way to have Adventurers play the same game save if that is desirable.

As far as comparing chess and civ, of course they are quite different games and a lot of knowledgeable points have been raised :hatsoff: but there are some parallels - both are turn based and equal thinking time is one key to a fair competition. Time constraints could be the best handicap for tougher competition.

Now that we have the big cat out of his den, :cool: hi Alan :wavey: what do you think of an Ironman category and an Open category with or without time constraints?
 
^
NOOOOOOOOOO! :shake:

We play Civ because it is turn based.
TMIT (e.g.) plays whole games in the time it takes me to make a decision.
Well, that's an exageration; but I agonize over every decision and check my cities every turn and do many things that result in taking a long to time to play a game.
We aren't trying to compare how fast we can play, but how well we can play. And not even that, because the chess analogy fails on the "how well" question. It's more about HOW; there isn't a "best move".

Having an award for the fastest game (like cow for most points) might be ok. But not as a separate category of competition.
 
^ Then you should compete in the Open category.

----
Edit: Actually you could play in either category. I only say that time is one way to make the game more of a challenge.
 
Time is far from fair. Half of my civving time is spent waiting for the game to react to my mouse clicks. Does that mean I need to operate twice as fast to compete with players using fancy new computers? One of the things that attracts me most to the whole Civilization franchise is that it is NOT real-time - if I wanted real-time competition I could go get whipped playing Starcraft.
 
Time is far from fair. Half of my civving time is spent waiting for the game to react to my mouse clicks. Does that mean I need to operate twice as fast to compete with players using fancy new computers? One of the things that attracts me most to the whole Civilization franchise is that it is NOT real-time - if I wanted real-time competition I could go get whipped playing Starcraft.

Having a slower computer might be an advantage - more time to think. :D It would be interesting to compare the game clocks between fast and slow computers.
 
^
NOOOOOOOOOO! :shake:

We play Civ because it is turn based.
TMIT (e.g.) plays whole games in the time it takes me to make a decision.
Well, that's an exageration; but I agonize over every decision and check my cities every turn and do many things that result in taking a long to time to play a game.
We aren't trying to compare how fast we can play, but how well we can play. And not even that, because the chess analogy fails on the "how well" question. It's more about HOW; there isn't a "best move".

Having an award for the fastest game (like cow for most points) might be ok. But not as a separate category of competition.

On the other hand, an awful lot of us already do have a real-time constraint applied to our games: real life. At the moment, that puts us into a category that gets the handicap but no recognition. Looking down the results chart, perhaps 40-50% of players spend less than 10 hours on a game, but most of the medals go to people who have spent more than 10 hours (often much much more). While I suppose we could say "This is a competition, go hard or go home" I think for most people that only really leaves the "go home" option available. For a game that has millions of players, I've always hoped we could muster more than 50-odd for the premier offline competition, but that's what it always seems to dwindle to.

It also manifests in odd ways -- for instance part of the reason I find I usually submit Space or Diplo wins is because I feel that pushing all the units around for a war takes longer (real-time) than I've got; in fact, it sometimes works out that the Space win takes ages anyway (some AI declares war in a late age when there are tons of pieces in play) but nonetheless, during the game the deciding factor in "not declaring war" has often been "I can't afford the extra time a war would take".

So I can certainly relate to the idea of wanting to compare myself with others who have the same constraints (I usually do check who took less time than me in the results list), rather than feel like a player who has two minutes on his time clock when everyone else theoretically has an hour.

At the moment, comparing my time to others is hard -- taking longer real-time incurs no penalty or category change, so even I usually leave the game on while I'm really away eating dinner.
 
Looking down the results chart, perhaps 40-50% of players spend less than 10 hours on a game, but most of the medals go to people who have spent more than 10 hours (often much much more).

I think a lot of the really long times are from people who just leave their computer on running civ. I know this has happened to me a few times when I've had >24hr games per the results table.
 
I think a lot of the really long times are from people who just leave their computer on running civ.

Yep, on a weekend day it is possible that I'll start in the morning and shutdown the game in the evening and actually I only spent half a hour playing. That is something out of my control with a family ;)
 
As far as comparing chess and civ, of course they are quite different games and a lot of knowledgeable points have been raised :hatsoff: but there are some parallels - both are turn based and equal thinking time is one key to a fair competition. Time constraints could be the best handicap for tougher competition.

That would simply be unworkable for military victory conditions. For example, you might be able to do an immortal/deity space game in under 5 hours, but it will be VERY hard, if not impossible to do any military victory under that time limit because of the units involved. On the other hand, you can probably crank out a religious victory in under an hour if you tried hard. Setting an artificial time limit would limit the players' option to certain victory conditions, without having the rules say as much. It would probably also limit the mapmakers' ability to design certain types of maps too.
 
hi Alan what do you think of an Ironman category and an Open category with or without time constraints?
I'm not qualified to judge, as I don't play Civ4, I'm just an admin around here. These things should be based on what will appeal to players, not what makes an admin happy, but since you ask, here's my view as an admin.

As a general principle I am against fuzzy rule definitions. They are as likely to be a problem for the players as for admin. I take people's ability to judge objectively whether or not they meet "honour" criteria with a large pinch of salt, even for quite explicit requirements; and I see difficulties in defining and policing the "ironman" category.

Is pencil and paper forbidden? Are printed copies of cheat-sheets permitted? Must I check my photographic memory or above-average mental arithmetic capabilities at the door when I fire up Civ5? What are the differences between these aids and the use of basic software tools? Are you just excluding what you personally don't feel comfortable using? When you talk about going "mano a mano" against the computer, I assume you realise that the computer *does* use impressive calculation and memory resources, and is very unlikely to make a mistake about the number of turns to achieve an objective. So, if I were trying to calculate the turns to research Civil Service, I'd rather use a calculator (or spreadsheet) than rely on my imperfect and ageing brain cells.

I don't have your aversion to spreadsheets. If people want to treat Civ as an exercise in accountancy, then so be it. We all bring our own varied background skills to bear when playing a game, and I don't think the ability to use a spreadsheet is an arcane art in this day and age. I do dislike the use of "test maps", but apart from the fact that you have to negotiate the dire user interface of the WorldBuilder; and the dangers of players confusing a test map with the real thing; I can't put my finger on my real cause for concern.

On a more basic level, I personally don't like multiple categories. I don't think they result in more players joining in the GOTMs, but they make it more difficult for players to judge their relative performance. About 12% of all Civ4 xOTM entries have been Adventurers and 4% Challengers. I doubt if many of those would have been put off if they could only play Contender, but that can only be a matter of speculation. Note that this view may not be shared by other GOTM Staffers.

On the subject of a speed-play competition, there's no such thing as a "game clock" in Civ. All we have is the computer's actual time of day clock. So we couldn't compensate for a slow computer, and we have no way to determine whether the game was idle for any length of time.

My ideal world as an admin would be one where you could only play GOTMs when online - a 'Pitboss' approach - but I somehow doubt it would go down well with the community :hmm:

I would welcome feedback on how much of the Civ4 GOTM competition should continue once Civ5 GOTM is up and running?
 
I had decided to follow this thread but not post in it until I saw this:
I would welcome feedback on how much of the Civ4 GOTM competition should continue once Civ5 GOTM is up and running?
Until I find out when/if Civ5 will be available in this remote corner of the world - my vote is keep 100% of it! :goodjob:

Or maybe drop the SGOTM if it looks like not enough people willing to stick with Civ4? :confused:
 
I would welcome feedback on how much of the Civ4 GOTM competition should continue once Civ5 GOTM is up and running?

Guess I will keep playing the BOTMs (already skipping Vanilla and Warlords) for a while but this will depend on how 'good' is Civ5 'in my eyes'.
 
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