youmakemefart
Warlord
45°38'N-13°47'E;13172404 said:
I agree, once the nuking starts the whole planet lights up... everything and anything will be nuked
On thermonuclear war
- Thread starter 45°38'N-13°47'E
- Start date
I agree, once the nuking starts the whole planet lights up... everything and anything will be nuked
Afforess
The White Wizard
I actually wrote up a long post on this, and then windows decided it was time to restart, and poof.
Long story short, the AI unit logic is separate from AI player logic. When the AI builds a nuke, the UnitAI takes over. The UnitAI for nukes only tries to find a target. Any target. So the AI will lob a nuke pretty much immediately.
IMO, there should be some code added to the AI units in the nuke logic to check if the AI player really wants to deal with the ramifications.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Well, that's another story. AI does build nukes and is probably good enough at using them, but doesn't know how/when is necessary to use them. When AI is at war and has nukes, it simply fires them and keeps building and firing them.
Edit: by the way I've recently fixed MAD Nukes Manager, we've discussed it a long time ago. After you fixed the button I discovered only Outgoing missiles screen was working. But now I've fixed it. Problem is that I've yet to see AI pretarget a nuke. I guess the problem here is the same as above. AI builds nukes and lets them sitting there but when a war starts, it simply fires them. Another thing I'd like to change is that MAD nukes are fired as soon as you enter a war, while my idea is that they should be fired when you are nuked.
edua234
Chieftain
It'll be helpful more types of smaller nukes.
For example make up an A-bomb upgrade, the A-strategic bomb, then the A-stealth bomb, just like the normal unit just only can be used one time with a one tile nuke explosion.
Also a Battlefield nuclear weapon, essentially it'll be a tactical nuke, the difference is that only damages a tile.
As you may know, in real life tactical nukes were carried on jets or aircraft carriers so I don't see any reason to don't introduce this on the game.
Those nukes will be useful for tactical or small targets, like Oil wells or many units on a tile.
For example make up an A-bomb upgrade, the A-strategic bomb, then the A-stealth bomb, just like the normal unit just only can be used one time with a one tile nuke explosion.
Also a Battlefield nuclear weapon, essentially it'll be a tactical nuke, the difference is that only damages a tile.
As you may know, in real life tactical nukes were carried on jets or aircraft carriers so I don't see any reason to don't introduce this on the game.
Those nukes will be useful for tactical or small targets, like Oil wells or many units on a tile.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
I feel there are already enough nukes in the game and tactical nuke had its range reduced to 1 some revision ago when it was made an upgrade of A-Bomb.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
I'd like to improve AI logic in launching nukes, but I need some help in brainstorming some ideas. Currently, I think AI launches nukes as soon as they're ready if it's at war and attitude is furious toward enemy. As it is, I think it's too limited as a decision process. There are many things that should be taken into account:
- Nukes available to opponent (and their number), in comparison with attacking AI
- Borders with opponent or its allies
- If opponent has defensive pact / is vassal, nukes available to opponent's allies
- Strenght ratio with opponent
- Number of bomb shelters built by opponents (and by aggressor), probably same for nuke silos
- Attitude and previous nukes exchanges
- SDI or other nukes intercepting wonders built by aggressor or opponent
Moreover, I still need to see AI pretarget nukes at me using MAD. Never once happened to me, so probably there's something missing too. I've done some quick test in MultiPlayer and I've checked that it works in MP but AI is never pretargetting my cities. Furthermore, nukes are launched as soon as the war breaks out when using MAD. I'd prefer that nukes be launched when you are nuked or with some other deeper logic.
I'm open to other considerations.
- Nukes available to opponent (and their number), in comparison with attacking AI
- Borders with opponent or its allies
- If opponent has defensive pact / is vassal, nukes available to opponent's allies
- Strenght ratio with opponent
- Number of bomb shelters built by opponents (and by aggressor), probably same for nuke silos
- Attitude and previous nukes exchanges
- SDI or other nukes intercepting wonders built by aggressor or opponent
Moreover, I still need to see AI pretarget nukes at me using MAD. Never once happened to me, so probably there's something missing too. I've done some quick test in MultiPlayer and I've checked that it works in MP but AI is never pretargetting my cities. Furthermore, nukes are launched as soon as the war breaks out when using MAD. I'd prefer that nukes be launched when you are nuked or with some other deeper logic.
I'm open to other considerations.
Arkatakor
King
I was surprised to read that some people claimed they were hardly nuked by the AI. In my experience, if the AI had nukes, they would use them. All. I had a city that bordered my nemesis once which was just in reach for tactical nukes. When he declared on me, I had to wait something like 3-5 minutes just watching my screen shake over and over again from the nuke effect. He would not hesitate to unload a dozen nukes on a single city to decimate anything defending it. In a single turn I think I was nuked something like 50 times (!!).
As a result of that game, I made nukes twice as expensive to build in my XML files.
As far as suggestions go, in my mind it would only seem logical that nukes should be able to have preset targets configured regardless of if you are using the MAD civic. Its only logical that such a feature should be independent of civic as thats how nukes work in the real world.
Further to this, I feel implementing the above would allow the AI to make more complex decisions about whether to use nukes as it would have to factor in how many nukes it would receive in return (I think for the sake of simplifying things the AI would simply have to have access to the nuke pretarget's of each player).
As a result of that game, I made nukes twice as expensive to build in my XML files.
As far as suggestions go, in my mind it would only seem logical that nukes should be able to have preset targets configured regardless of if you are using the MAD civic. Its only logical that such a feature should be independent of civic as thats how nukes work in the real world.
Further to this, I feel implementing the above would allow the AI to make more complex decisions about whether to use nukes as it would have to factor in how many nukes it would receive in return (I think for the sake of simplifying things the AI would simply have to have access to the nuke pretarget's of each player).
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Sorta related to the nuclear war bit... But does the AI ever run anything other than M.A.D. if they have access to Advanced Rocketry? Like with Monarchy (And sometimes oddly enough, Prophets) the AI seems to adore the heck out of that civic and revolts to it the moment they can and then refuses to leave it. It has a lot of good points to it and hardly any real negatives, and relations automatically drop with most of the world because everyone but me is running it.
I think the AI loves it so much because of the many +100%'s on it.
+100% GG emergence
+100% MILITARY production (And they love their military units)
+100% Nuke production (If there's anything they love more than military units, its nukes)
The few negatives it has is trivial, especially to the AI, so I can see why they stick to it so much, but honestly, I think it's a lot like the President civic - far too many positives and no real downsides, and overall a bit too powerful. That +100% nuke production (And the missile lab only further boosting that) is just crazy
(In contrast, Green and Divine Cult have too many downsides and not enough positives. Green's better than DC, but not by much)
I think the AI loves it so much because of the many +100%'s on it.
+100% GG emergence
+100% MILITARY production (And they love their military units)
+100% Nuke production (If there's anything they love more than military units, its nukes)
The few negatives it has is trivial, especially to the AI, so I can see why they stick to it so much, but honestly, I think it's a lot like the President civic - far too many positives and no real downsides, and overall a bit too powerful. That +100% nuke production (And the missile lab only further boosting that) is just crazy
(In contrast, Green and Divine Cult have too many downsides and not enough positives. Green's better than DC, but not by much)
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
triplebassist
Chieftain
Except M.A.D. was and is a common tatic for states (think about the Cold War), and is probably even more popular today in its morphed form M.A.E.D. (Mutually Assured Economic Destruction)
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
But the AI don't see it that way at all. They jump to it and never look back because of all the positive things about it, and the whole point of this thread is because of how nuke-happy they are. So why would we give them +100% nuke building capability AND a building that boosts that even further, if we're trying to cut BACK on how much they spam nukes with abandon?
The moment a single AI gets the ability to build missiles, the whole world goes up in flames within 50 turns. And MAD just makes that even worse when they can make nukes in not 10 turns per city, but 1 or 2 turns per city.
MAD might work in real life where it keeps people from throwing nukes in abandon, but it doesn't work that way in Civilization and never will. The AI loves nukes and giving them the ability to triple their production of them is just not going to end well. Real life everyone having nukes might deter people from using them, but the AI in Civilization will just let them all loose on the very first turn they go to war. MAD cannot and will not ever work in Civilization the way it is "supposed to" in real life as long as the AI is so nuke happy.
On that note, why bother with having Unmanned Warfare as a civic option if no one is going to use anything than MAD? No one is going to be using anything else so why bother?
The only reason I suggested removing MAD (Which I wasn't truly suggesting seriously, but even so) was because if we're trying to keep the nuclear warring under reasonable limits, allowing the AI to massively increase their nuke production is not the way to go. The AI don't see "Oh, but we'll destroy ourselves/the environment if we let loose our entire arsenal... We shouldn't do this" when they have +100% to nuke production. They see it as "Let's destroy everything!" and then they spam the missiles. Not only that, but you're stuck with a -2 diplo hit with everyone because you're using Volunteer Army or Unmaned Warfare instead of what every single AI is using.
Unless MAD carried a penalty for USING nukes and the AI was aware of that penalty, or it had other drawbacks to it (The AI doesn't care about culture, and a small -2 unhappy in your largest cities is meaningless at that point in the game), then I don't see why keeping it around is an honestly good idea. It's not going to be like its Cold War counterpart and make everyone reluctant to use them - it's going to make everyone want to use them more.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Not so sure about it, I'm working on it. Problem is that AI isn't considering consequences and pondering advantages/disvantages: they simply must be factored in in the decision process.
And to my experience, no, AI doesn't use MAD forever. On the contrary, they switch out of it because of the huge cultural penalty, and yes, AI cares about culture (in fact they switch sometimes to 0% science, 100% culture for dozens of turns). Anyway I need to tweak some civics, MAD included.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
45°38'N-13°47'E;13213365 said:
Interesting, that's been the opposite of my experiences
Though to be fair I've only reached that point from an Ancient Era start a few times, and in that case only a third or so of the AI switched to MAD and some of them switched out of it on their own later. When I start a Modern-Era game though, all of the AI - even rebellion/barb spawned ones or colony spawned ones - will switch to MAD upon starting and usually stay there for the rest of the game. The only civs that dared to change out of it were ones Friendly with me.
So my experiences were mostly coming from Modern/Transhuman starts (Technically Modern since you have to research the Transhuman tech first), but I do remember them liking it a lot in the past before as well. It just wasn't the whole world running it back then.
I'm not so sure it really needs that large of a Military and missile +% though. +50% military and +25% missile perhaps, since the Missile Silo building also boosts the nuke production doesn't it? Can't really remember since I've only used MAD once.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Well, game isn't really designed for later starts yet, so that could depend on starting in the modern era. It's on my to-do list to balance the game on later starts but it's very low on priority right now.
At the moment I've suspended working on Great Diplomat mod and Nukes enhancement because there are a couple of CTD and hangs that I'd like to fix first. Then a bit of balancing because the new tech diffusion is unbalancing things a bit. Then I'll resume working on diplomat and nukes.
At the moment I've suspended working on Great Diplomat mod and Nukes enhancement because there are a couple of CTD and hangs that I'd like to fix first. Then a bit of balancing because the new tech diffusion is unbalancing things a bit. Then I'll resume working on diplomat and nukes.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
45°38'N-13°47'E;13213376 said:
Modern (Transhuman) era starts have tended to be pretty hectic in my experience, especially when Revolutions are on and Vassals disabled. I generally see at least one or two AIs exit the game within the first fifty turns, and revolution-spawned units simply overpower them within seconds. All players (On Noble at least) start with like, three Marines and rebels get Modern Marines (And lots of them!) and sometimes even Mech Infantry regardless if the civ spawning them has the ability to (Missing Oil Products)
It takes ages to research the era-changing tech due to low city count, but the AIs that do survive the initial turns often come out pretty powerful.
I don't usually start on anything past Classic Era actually, I only took these for a try recently so I could have some fun with the buildings and units that I rarely ever get to see
It's amazing seeing how fast wonders and corporations fall on the Mars Colonization scenario.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Another way I was thinking about to reduce nuclear proliferation would be adding another prereq resource for building advanced nukes like ICBM and similar; for example adding Aluminum as a prereq for building those missiles. Or adding a new resource Plutonium created by some new building which requires uranium and lead (kind of Nuclear plant). This should reduce nukes production. A-Bomb and Tactical Nukes shouldn't require additional resources. More advanced nukes, require them. Opinions?
oldnooob
Prince
45°38'N-13°47'E;13214373 said:
Here's what I want to do -- haven't coded this yet, but still want to do it.
- Manhattan Project comes back as a World Project. I have always adored the "genie out of the bottle" aspect of the Manhattan Project, so that whoever wants to be the first one to get nukes has to do some heavy work. However, I also respect that each civ should have to do some work in order to use nukes, so it doesn't allows nukes at first, but it does allow players to build the next stage.
- Current National Wonder Manhattan Project becomes First Nuclear Test. The only real change to this is that it is coded as a SPECIALBUILDING_FIRST_NUCLEAR_TEST, which is unlocked whenever any player finishes the Manhattan Project. A Python routine would put a free First Nuclear Test in the capital of the city finishing Manhattan, but everyone else would have to build a FNT to get their own nukes.
- Warhead Factory comes along at Advanced Rocketry, which is the tech where Tactical Nuke and ICBM come available, and then it's required for every nuke after A-Bomb. The big drawback that I would give the Warhead Factory is that it has a meltdown chance. I would put it at half that of the Nuclear Plant (1 chance in 4000 to melt down every turn).
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
I like the idea but that wouldn't reduce nuclear proliferation, which I think it's needed. We could merge both ideas and let Warhead Factory produce Plutonium using Uranium and Lead and maybe add Aluminum as a prereq for building nukes except A-Bomb and maybe Tactical Nukes. In this case I wouldn't make Warhead Factory a building but maybe a National Wonder producing 2 Plutonium (always to avoid it being traded too much hence increasing nuclear proliferation again, which I'd like to avoid). What do you think?
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