[Vote] (2-04) Proposal: Iron is revealed earlier at Mining, instead of Bronze Working

[rkkn]

You need to think of something else to put on bronze working. A unit, and wonder, and a bonus to chopping is not going to cut it. If this passes the.

You break it; you buy it. Bronze working sucks, and you volunteered yourself to fix it.

well bronze working can join mathematics, then. It's in the same boat. a unit and two wonders. both need some fixing

resource reveal being in a more sensible spot is independent of this imo

 

[KlHannibal2]

It looks like this is going to pass, but… uuuugh. This is a step back no matter how you slice it.

You need to think of something else to put on bronze working. A unit, and wonder, and a bonus to chopping is not going to cut it. If this passes the.

You break it; you buy it. Bronze working sucks, and you volunteered yourself to fix it.

Bronze working does suck. But what about fishing, sitting on the opposite side of the tech tree. I find it a similarly unattractive tech to go for unless I have a sea luxury.

 

[pineappledan]

Bronze working does suck. But what about fishing, sitting on the opposite side of the tech tree. I find it a similarly unattractive tech to go for unless I have a sea luxury.

Fishing is about to get a unit added to it, if the early naval split goes through.

a unit and two wonders. both need some fixing

Math has 2 wonders and a unit, and leads to 3 other techs (currency, engineering, philosophy).

Bronze has 1 unit, 1 tech, and a chop bonus, and leads to 1 other tech (iron working).

Mathematics >>> Bronze working

 

[Stalker0]

Bronze working does suck. But what about fishing, sitting on the opposite side of the tech tree. I find it a similarly unattractive tech to go for unless I have a sea luxury.

depending on your map sometimes disembarking is absolutely worth it. I have shaved 10 turns off a settler due to the power of disembarking, that is no joke in the early game.

 

[rkkn]

Fishing is about to get a unit added to it, if the early naval split goes through.

Math has 2 wonders and a unit, and leads to 3 other techs (currency, engineering, philosophy).

Bronze has 1 unit, 1 tech, and a chop bonus, and leads to 1 other tech (iron working).

Mathematics >>> Bronze working

well we definitely disagree here.

First of all, what it's a prerequisite for is not part of the tech itself, so I don't really consider that. But if you must factor that in, note that bronze working is also a prerequisite for engineering. Engineering requires both mathematics and bronze working, so you can take that off of the list for mathematics.

Anyway, main point of disagreement imo is that wonders are not very solid unlocks. They can be built by others. Especially on higher difficulties. Only the first tier wonders (stonehenge, pyramids) can be gotten with any kind of reliability. I see the chop bonus as more valuable.

But all that aside, this is just a discussion about who's in last place. Both techs need more on them.

 

[pineappledan]

But all that aside, this is just a discussion about who's in last place. Both techs need more on them.

Architecture is in last place. I'm currently trying to address that with another proposal. 2 world wonders and a national wonder that you can't even build without having researched a different tech on the same tier. Atrocious.

Someone has to be the bottom, but Bronze working being a deeper bottom than Mathematics is just the literal facts. But Fixing Bronze Working after having ruined its value is someone else's problem.

 

[Stalker0]

Architecture is in last place. I'm currently trying to address that with another proposal. 2 world wonders and a national wonder that you can't even build without having researched a different tech on the same tier. Atrocious.

You all are using theory when we have to consider actuals. I don't care a lick how much or how little a tech has, teh question is....do I USE it?

For me, I can say, I use mathematics a fair amount, for many reasons. Sometimes I need the prereqs, sometimes I want hanging gardens, sometimes I want Roman forum. The tech for me gets used. Bronze Working is a tech I actively avoid in many builds, mainly because if I want certain wonders I just can't afford the science, and if I want those juicy northern techs, again can't afford the science. Now that doesn't mean I never go BW, there are builds that I do, but its almost always a south focused strategy. I never have time to just "pick up BW", I need it for a core part of my strat.

Now Architecture, I use it plenty. You say "2 world wonders" as if the science wonder it has wasn't one of the best in the game. I go architecture in games, sometimes I beeline it. I go for it more often than I go for BW.

 

[rkkn]

For me, I can say, I use mathematics a fair amount, for many reasons. Sometimes I need the prereqs, sometimes I want hanging gardens, sometimes I want Roman forum. The tech for me gets used. Bronze Working is a tech I actively avoid in many builds, mainly because if I want certain wonders I just can't afford the science, and if I want those juicy northern techs, again can't afford the science. Now that doesn't mean I never go BW, there are builds that I do, but its almost always a south focused strategy. I never have time to just "pick up BW", I need it for a core part of my strat.

It seems we just play very different games. Classical era wonder tech unlocks are worth peanuts to me cuz I just can't get them. Going for classical wonders isn't something I consider viable to do until after I have enough production that I can afford to not get it. because not getting it is the more likely outcome. Especially top side wonders. Library, Parthenon, Oracle, and Hanging Gardens are the most-rushed by the AI. Angkor Wat is the only one I consider reliable. AI does not seem to value that one very highly. That and Roman Forum. That one is also typically very rushable. Only needs 3 policies and AI does not prioritize it either.

 

[Stalker0]

It seems we just play very different games.

And that in a nutshell is why the Congress is important. If so very easy to talk balance from a singular viewpoint, when you get used to a way of playing it sets your views on what is good and what has issues. But a player going a different style may have a completely different viewpoint.

I use ancestor worship as a great example for me. For a long time I had thought the pantheon was terrible, because I had gotten so used to monument shrine I hadn’t really considered going council first with that pantheon. Then a debate showed me the light, and I realized how incredible strong it is. We must constantly challenge our assumptions with other viewpoints

 

[pineappledan]

You all are using theory when we have to consider actuals. I don't care a lick how much or how little a tech has, teh question is....do I USE it?

If I have been beaten to Architecture by the AI I can't USE anything on that tech without Acoustics. The relative strength of the Porcelain Tower doesn't count for much if I can't build it.

For brevity, I didn't get into the details of the components, but you bring up another point. Math not only has more things to build than Bronze, they are also better. Roman Forum and Hanging Garden are both stronger, more useful wonders than Statue of Zeus. The skirmisher is a stronger unit than the spearman, and is about to get slightly stronger this congress. Some users have pointed out that spears are even a situational downgrade from the warrior, who can barb hunt nearly as well at a fraction of the cost. Aside from the quantity of things and what it leads to, the quality of the components on Math is also greater than anything on Bronze.

This was brought up on the discord, but iron unlocking earlier also puts a strategic resource a full era earlier than anything that uses it. This is a huge dislocation, and not consistent with how SRs are treated in the rest of the game. If anything, Iron should have been pushed BACK, not forward.

 

[BornDownUnder]

I vote nay.

Iron is used as a unit resource requirement, not as a basis for growth.
It is also fundamental for the tech that reveals it. Without it the tech is essentially a time gate for those that choose to research the lower half of the tech tree.

The predominant reason behind my vote against is far easier determination of settler placement to build satellite cities will result in less strategy/adaptation required as SR providing production and science (Once SR is improved) is revealed in the first tech teir.

The effects of having Iron revealed with researching Mining:

A production boost per city that has Iron as a SR revealed.
A slight science boost per city that Iron as a SR revealed.
Nation wide SR tradeability which will increase GPT for a resource that will not be utilized for a full era. In time, will only be utilized by those that choose to research the lower half of the tech tree.

Those that stick to the lower tree to focus on higher teir unit output will in turn have an easier time pumping out those units in the first era and leading towards the second, as the earlier SR reveal will allow for more production output and refinement by earlier placement of SR improvement.

This proposal just highlights the imbalance that is current with the tech tree, harder for Authority civs (Player or AI) to maintain momentum if they cannot capitalize in the first two eras, which will be more difficult as civs that choose to research the upper techs gain a production and science boost.

 

[Legen]

iron unlocking earlier also puts a strategic resource a full era earlier than anything that uses it. This is a huge dislocation, and not consistent with how SRs are treated in the rest of the game. If anything, Iron should have been pushed BACK, not forward.

It doesn't change the fact that Iron was among the earliest minerals ever mined. And that the oldest known mine in the world is also an iron mine.

Also, it is a major dislocation that Ancient Era has an improvement (mine) being unlocked before the resource reveal. Every other resource in Ancient Era is revealed either before or at the same time that the improvement is unlocked. Iron is the exception, and it comes at the expense of making Mining an aberration compared to all other first column Ancient Era techs.

The effects of having Iron revealed with researching Mining:

A production boost per city that has Iron as a SR revealed.
A slight science boost per city that Iron as a SR revealed.
Nation wide SR tradeability which will increase GPT for a resource that will not be utilized for a full era. In time, will only be utilized by those that choose to research the lower half of the tech tree.

Those that stick to the lower tree to focus on higher teir unit output will in turn have an easier time pumping out those units in the first era and leading towards the second, as the earlier SR reveal will allow for more production output and refinement by earlier placement of SR improvement.

Pottery, Trapping, The Wheel and Animal Husbandry already have similar effects. Mining is the odd one that doesn't have an immediate boost. Moreover, we can argue that, if unlocking Iron was that powerful, then Mining into Bronze Working would already outclass other tech choices in this era. Nothing prevents you from researching the current Bronze Working as your second or third tech and sell the Iron you won't be using for a whole era; yet, the discussion here has been that Bronze Working is weak, implying that an early Iron unlock isn't gamebreaking.

Some users have pointed out that spears are even a situational downgrade from the warrior, who can barb hunt nearly as well at a fraction of the cost.

Which I disagree. Spearman having 50% higher base CS matters a lot, especially when going Authority. A Warrior benefits little from any combat modifier you add to it, and trying to compensate the lower CS with more of them means more maintenance costs. I always find Spearman noticeably more efficient vs barbarians, both in combat and in gold expenditure. This is especially true in starts with heavy rough terrain, where the defensive CS multipliers make Spearman outclass Warriors handily.

Someone has to be the bottom, but Bronze working being a deeper bottom than Mathematics is just the literal facts. But Fixing Bronze Working after having ruined its value is someone else's problem.

To me, the bottom tech is Fishing. Bronze Working is a solid tech to defend yourself from both barbarians and aggressive neighbors, it has a decent wonder for militaristic civs (and war is still the best way to win vs the AI), and it leads to Iron Working for the so desired Barracks-Forge-Arena combo. Even without the combo, merely having a Forge in a city with Iron tiles around is very powerful; you get science from Iron mines and Forge, plenty of production and at least one solid city for military unit production.

 

[pineappledan]

it is a major dislocation that Ancient Era has an improvement (mine) being unlocked before the resource reveal.

Salt, copper, gold, and silver are revealed immediately.

To me, the bottom tech is Fishing.

Even if that were true, fishing is about to get a new unit while you're proposing to impoverish bronze working.

The ability to embark alone is worth everything else on BW

 

[Legen]

Salt, copper, gold, and silver are revealed immediately.

Just like pearls, orange, truffles and any other luxury resource. Iron is not an luxury resource, so the rationale doesn't apply.

Even if that were true, fishing is about to get a new unit while you're proposing to impoverish bronze working.

The ability to embark alone is worth everything else on BW

Not at all, embark it is map dependent and can often be delayed. Military units are not, and the Spearman is one of the most basic units in most army compositions.

Besides, this proposal isn't tied to the naval proposal. It is about Mining not being as good for settling decisions as the other four Ancient Era techs in the first column. Bronze Working, or any other second column tech, are very costly for such role, and the Mining + Bronze Working duo is particularly bad in that they cost together almost triple the science of any other first column tech to reveal a single resource. This is what this proposal is about. Even if Bronze Working isn't as strong as people want, it doesn't change that it is still a bad place to have an Ancient Era resource reveal.

I have some proposal ideas for Bronze Working next session, due to demand, but I still stand that Bronze Working should not be defined by Iron reveal, of all things.

 

[rkkn]

yes, getting things back on track, "bronze working will be too weak" is a problem better solved separately. That should not have us feel the need to let another problem persist.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I vote nay.

Iron is used as a unit resource requirement, not as a basis for growth.
It is also fundamental for the tech that reveals it. Without it the tech is essentially a time gate for those that choose to research the lower half of the tech tree.

The predominant reason behind my vote against is far easier determination of settler placement to build satellite cities will result in less strategy/adaptation required as SR providing production and science (Once SR is improved) is revealed in the first tech teir.

The effects of having Iron revealed with researching Mining:

A production boost per city that has Iron as a SR revealed.
A slight science boost per city that Iron as a SR revealed.
Nation wide SR tradeability which will increase GPT for a resource that will not be utilized for a full era. In time, will only be utilized by those that choose to research the lower half of the tech tree.

Those that stick to the lower tree to focus on higher teir unit output will in turn have an easier time pumping out those units in the first era and leading towards the second, as the earlier SR reveal will allow for more production output and refinement by earlier placement of SR improvement.

This proposal just highlights the imbalance that is current with the tech tree, harder for Authority civs (Player or AI) to maintain momentum if they cannot capitalize in the first two eras, which will be more difficult as civs that choose to research the upper techs gain a production and science boost.

On the other hand, authority civs also get some good benefit from the change. It will be easier for them to settle near iron, link it up, and decide about their pantheon. With better city placement near iron, they can get lots of production from forges. More than they would with a later iron reveal. And that's what civs that go for upper techs don't get.

 

[KlHannibal2]

It doesn't change the fact that Iron was among the earliest minerals ever mined. And that the oldest known mine in the world is also an iron mine.

Also, it is a major dislocation that Ancient Era has an improvement (mine) being unlocked before the resource reveal. Every other resource in Ancient Era is revealed either before or at the same time that the improvement is unlocked. Iron is the exception, and it comes at the expense of making Mining an aberration compared to all other first column Ancient Era techs.


Pottery, Trapping, The Wheel and Animal Husbandry already have similar effects. Mining is the odd one that doesn't have an immediate boost. Moreover, we can argue that, if unlocking Iron was that powerful, then Mining into Bronze Working would already outclass other tech choices in this era. Nothing prevents you from researching the current Bronze Working as your second or third tech and sell the Iron you won't be using for a whole era; yet, the discussion here has been that Bronze Working is weak, implying that an early Iron unlock isn't gamebreaking.


Which I disagree. Spearman having 50% higher base CS matters a lot, especially when going Authority. A Warrior benefits little from any combat modifier you add to it, and trying to compensate the lower CS with more of them means more maintenance costs. I always find Spearman noticeably more efficient vs barbarians, both in combat and in gold expenditure. This is especially true in starts with heavy rough terrain, where the defensive CS multipliers make Spearman outclass Warriors handily.


To me, the bottom tech is Fishing. Bronze Working is a solid tech to defend yourself from both barbarians and aggressive neighbors, it has a decent wonder for militaristic civs (and war is still the best way to win vs the AI), and it leads to Iron Working for the so desired Barracks-Forge-Arena combo. Even without the combo, merely having a Forge in a city with Iron tiles around is very powerful; you get science from Iron mines and Forge, plenty of production and at least one solid city for military unit production.

Add to that that several civs have UUs unlocking at bronze working or iron working, making both techs very attractive for them: Greece, Persia, Rome, Indonesia, Assyria (more UC). And Zulus have a UB at BW.
Fishing/sailing only has Carthage and Byzantium UUs (with more UC), of which I only find Carthage's UU worth going for early. And Denmark UB.

 

[pineappledan]

Iron is not an luxury resource, so the rationale doesn't apply.

Because your rationale is just false. You're claiming that iron Needs to unlock with the mine improvement and that's as bizarre a statement as if you were making it about coal.

Military units are not, and the Spearman is one of the most basic units in most army compositions.

I make due with the archer or mounted units; I never feel the need for spears at the expense of unlocking improvements or wonders.

I have some proposal ideas for Bronze Working next session, due to demand, but I still stand that Bronze Working should not be defined by Iron reveal, of all things.

Your "issues" with iron's placement would cause fewer problems if it was moved back to iron working.

Moving Iron out of ancient addresses your issues with it contributing to early starts without unlocking a tradeable resource a full era before anything uses it.

yes, getting things back on track, "bronze working will be too weak" is a problem better solved separately. That should not have us feel the need to let another problem persist.

Disagree.

If you propose to gimp a part of the tech tree, you have to defend that, and not make some vague promise that you'll "deal with it later", or that you fully intend to leave a mess and expect other community members to clean up after you.

Thematically, there's also the matter that the civilopedia entry for Mining actually references iron ("The earliest mined elements include copper, iron, diamonds, gold, silver, salt and coal."). Compare to the entry for Bronze Working, which doesn't reference iron at all.

I have some proposal ideas for Bronze Working next session, due to demand, but I still stand that Bronze Working should not be defined by Iron reveal, of all things.

Then move it to Iron Working. If you're going to hang so much of your argument on civilopedia entries and words, then put it on the tech that literally has iron in the title.

Number of times "iron" is mentioned in the mining civilopedia entry: 1
Number of times "iron" is mentioned in the iron working civilopedia entry: 10

Oh well shoot. I guess since we are making balance changes based on pedia entries now, my argument is 10x better than yours.
You know that pedia entry you cite also lists coal right? "The earliest mined elements include copper, iron, diamonds, gold, silver, salt and coal." Do you want coal revealed immediately too?

 

[Rekk]

yes, getting things back on track, "bronze working will be too weak" is a problem better solved separately. That should not have us feel the need to let another problem persist.

No, it is an issue with  this proposal, because  this proposal is what makes bronze working worse.

Ie. This proposal, specifically, makes the game worse, so it should not pass. If Iron must move away from bronze working, it should be paired with something compensatory for bronze working.

 

[pineappledan]

If you want Mining to reveal a resource so badly then suggest a Bonus Resource for it to reveal, not to pull a tradeable SR away from the components that need it. You may as well argue for Coal to reveal immediately for all the sense this makes.

There was a proposal elsewhere in this congress where they wanted a new jungle production resource. a hardwood resource that is improved by lumber mills could do the job, and be tied to mining because the chop action unlocks there, and lumber mills are unlocked on bottom techs. That addresses your complaint about a resource reveal and the attendant free yields. You won't get to improve it right away, which means it will cause less of a disruption to the existing early game meta than an immediately improvable resource.

Otherwise you could go for something like Obsidian, Lead, or Sulfur as a bonus resource.