[Vote] (5-17) Denmark Change Proposals

[Enginseer]

Current Abilities
Viking Fury (UA):
Embarked Units have +1 Movement points and pay just 1 Movement point to Disembark.
All Melee Land Units gain the Viking promotion (no Movement point cost to Pillage tiles. +25% Base Combat Strength when on Pillaged Tiles. +5 HP when healing in Neutral Territory),
All Melee Naval Units gain the Longboat promotion (no Movement point cost to Pillage tiles. +15% Combat Strength when attacking or defending on Coastal Tiles. Recovers HP twice as fast when healing on Coastal Tiles.)

Runestone (UB):
+2 Culture
Units created by this City generate 30 Culture and 30 Gold, scaling with Era when they pillage.
+25% Production to Melee and Naval Melee Units.
+2 Food and +1 Gold to Coast and Ocean.
Can be built without water access.
Cost 1 Gold Maintenance.
Internal Trade Routes generate +6 Food.
+1 Military Supply.



Proposal 5-17
Author: Enginseer

Spoiler :

	Current	Proposed	Differences	Rationale
UA Name	Viking Fury	Mycel Hæþen Here	Title change	Sounds cooler.
UA Effect	Embarked Units gain +1 Movement and pay just 1 Movement to Disembark. Melee Land Units start with the Viking Promotion. Melee Naval Units start with the Longboat Promotion.	Embarking uses 1 Move. +1 Move to Embarked Units. Melee Land Units gain +25% Base Combat Strength on Pillaged Tiles and pillage for free, gaining 30 Gold and 3 Great General Points, scaling with Era.	No change in embarking effect. See Viking Differences. UA also no longer grants Longboat Promotion.	See Viking Rationale. I would like to move the Longboat Promotion to Runestone since that's around the same time you can get ships running around as well. This way the UA has more visibility and more emphasis on land pillaging as well as its Base Combat Strength bonus meaning promotions that affect combat strength are amplified up by +25% more!
UB Effect	Lighthouse replacement. +2 Culture. +1 Military Supply. 1 Gold Maintenance. Units created by this City generate 30 Culture and 30 Gold, scaling with Era when they pillage. +25% Production to Land Melee and Naval Melee Units. +2 Food and +1 Gold to Coast and Ocean. Can be built without water access. Internal Trade Routes generate +6 Food.	Lighthouse replacement. +2 Culture. +1 Military Supply. No Gold Maintenance. All Naval Melee Units in this City (past or future) gain the Longboat Promotion. Units created by this City generate 30 Culture, scaling with Era when they pillage. +25% Production to Melee, Gun, and Naval Melee Units. +2 Food and +1 Gold to Coast and Ocean. Can be built without water access. Internal Trade Routes generate +6 Food.	Not much of the building changed. Pillaging by this City's Unit no longer grants Gold. No Gold Maintenance. +25% Production to Gun Units. Building now grants the Longboat Promotion.	Pillaging now grants Gold from their respective units. Ranged Land and Naval Units when they pillage will only grant Culture now instead of including Gold. The looting of massive gold belongs to the Melees! I've added +25% Production to Gun Units since the +25% Production bonus to only Melee (pre-Gun) units means part of its bonuses starts obsoleting!
Viking Promotion	+25% Base Combat Strength on Pillaged Tiles. Pillaging costs no Movement. +5 HP when healing in Neutral Territory.	+25% Base Combat Strength on Pillaged Tiles. Pillaging costs no Movement and grants 30 Gold and 3 Great General Points, scaling with Era.	Loses its +5 HP Regeneration in neutral territory. Gains 30 Gold and 3 Great General Points when pillaging.	I would like for pillaging yields to start as early as possible. The Great General Point earned from pillaging can help a lot as well. The +5 HP Regeneration in Neutral Territory is very hard to use when you're actively warring and you might as well just regenerate in friendly territory if you were given that option!
Longboat Promotion	Given to Naval Melee Units from Viking Fury (UA). +15% Combat Strength when attacking or defending Coast Tiles. Pillaging costs no Movement. Recovers Hit Points Twice as Quickly while healing on Coast Tiles.	Given to Naval Melee Units from Runestone (UB). +15% Combat Strength when attacking or defending Coast Tiles. Pillaging costs no Movement and grants 100 Gold and 10 Great Admiral Points, scaling with Era. Recovers Hit Points Twice as Quickly while healing on Coast Tiles or inland.	How it is given is from UA -> UB now. Grants 100 Gold and 10 Great Admiral Points from pillaging. Recover HP twice as quickly on City/Canal tiles as well.	Pillaging water improvements are harder than it looks. It should have more rewards given how infrequent it is to pillage a lot of them compared to land improvements. There's also this weird inconsistency. You heal 30 HP on the coast but put it in a city and you heal 20 HP? Let's make it 40 HP (30 in non-City land tiles).

Proposal 5-17a
Discussion Thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/5-cp-counterproposal-denmark-ua-and-ub-buff.684421/
Author: pineappledan

Spoiler :

UA changes:

• Change UA name to: Mycel Hæþen Here (Great Heathen Army)
• Viking Promotion:
  • remove '+25%CS when on pillaged Tiles'
  • remove '+5HP when healing in neutral lands'
  • Add 'pillaging non-road improvements gives 30Gold, Scaling with Era.'
  • Add 'pillaging non-road improvements heals unit by an additional 10 HP' (new promotion table ability code: PartialHealOnPillage)
  • Add 'pillaging non-road improvements deals 10 damage to adjacent Enemy Units' (new promotion table ability code: AOEDamageOnPillage)
• Longboat Promotion:
  • remove '+15% Combat Strength when attacking or defending on Coastal Tiles.'
  • remove 'Recovers HP twice as fast when healing on Coastal Tiles.'
  • Add 'pillaging improvements gives 60Gold, Scaling with Era.'
  • Add 'pillaging improvements fully heals unit'
  • Add 'pillaging improvements deals 15 damage to adjacent Enemy Units' (same as above)
• Rename both promotions to 'Viking' (ie. drop separate 'Longboat' name)

UB changes

• Add +25% for Gun units
• Lower extra food on Internal TRs to +4 (same as base lighthouse)
• Remove 30gold on pillage

Rationale:

• UA Name change:
  • 'Viking Fury' is a made up title. 'The Great Heathen Army' ('Mycel Hæþen Here' in the original Old English) is what the Saxons called the Danes invaders when they invaded Britain.
• Promotion ability changes:
  • The new promotion table for yields on pillage allows us to make separate values for land and sea tile pillages. We can use this to make pillaging sea tiles worth more. This is good, because they are relatively rare, so they should be more valuable
  • The 25%on pillaged tiles and 15% in coastline are not great abilities.
    • It incentivizes Danish units to stand and fight instead of moving around to pillage more or retreat
    • The 25% on pillage bonus is really weird, because it augments base CS directly.
    • The CS can also be used defensively, since a unit can benefit from standing on a pillaged tile in friendly land.
    • Thematically, the Danes should be hitting hard, getting the loot, and then get out. AOE damage on pillage would feel more dynamic and aggressive than a combat bonus. It also means that it is strictly for attack, since instant on-pillage effects can only trigger in enemy lands.
  • The heal in neutral abilities aren't interesting
    • Could tie bonus healing to more pillaging instead. More incentive to keep pillaging.
• Promotion name changes
  • With the only difference between the land and naval melee promotions being how much on pillage they give, we can treat them as the same promotion and call them the same thing: Vikingr.
  • Viking no longer has to refer only to the raiders on land.
  • This condenses the UA ability, makes it easier to understand and describe. It's more coherent and consistent
• UB changes
  • The UB needs to lose the gold on pillage so we can have 2 separate levels of pillage gold for land and sea tiles
  • The % bonus for unit production is only on melee and naval melee units. It does not boost UNITCOMBAT_GUN, which means it currently obsoletes for land units at Renaissance. This seems like more of a bug fix.
  • The 2 extra on ITRs is a tiny bonus, and it seems weird to have at all. Is there real intent here to bias Denmark towards internal food TRs? If not, it should be removed

Overall, the idea is to make Denmark even more dialled-in to pillage as the main focus. The bonuses should create more incentives for Danish units to keep moving and pillaging constantly, and not benefit from sticking around.
This proposal is fairly complex, because it requires 2 new abilities, but they both seem quite doable.

[\Spoiler]

 

[axatin]

MAGI: @Enginseer Please add a description of the current state of Danmark's UA and UB in the proposal text.

 

[pineappledan]

• UA renamed to Great Heathen Army

Why go only halfway? rename the UA to : Mycel Hæþen Here

• Runestone no longer grants 30 Gold from Pillaging, scaling with Era.
• Melee Land Units starting with the Viking Promotion gain 30 Gold and 3 Great General Points from Pillaging, scaling with Era.
• Navy Units starting with the Longboat Promotion gain 100 Gold and 10 Great Admiral Points from Pillaging, scaling with Era.

Agree with moving the on pillage to Viking promo. I also like the increase of the value of naval tile improvements. Good change

Disagree with adding GGEneral/Admiral points to pillage.
You give a comparison to becoming more like Portugal as a positive point for why we should make this change. Why? Why should Denmark become more like Portugal? Why should we be intentionally aiming at making two civs more similar? That is preceisely why we should NOT make such a change.

• Runestone now grants +25% Production toward Ranged Naval Units.
• UA also grants Ranged Naval Units the Longboat Promotion.

I don't agree with the reasoning that Denmark should have its UA extended to naval ranged units. I like the emphasis on melee in both land and sea.

You say "We don't have many civs that buff all ships", but we have some (Spain, England). If you move Denmark's UA onto naval ranged units, then we have no civs that exclusively buff naval melee exclusively. So, again, why should we take a civ from a more unique UA and change it to be more similar to other civs' UAs? Both your arguments for these changes are about taking something unique about Denmark and making it more similar to another civ's bonus.

Also, why stop at naval ranged units? What about submarines and carriers?

 

[Enginseer]

Why go only halfway? rename the UA to : Mycel Hæþen Here

I don't know if the Civ 5 Font accepts that nor does it seem uniform with the rest of the UA titles.

Disagree with adding GGEneral/Admiral points to pillage.
You give a comparison to becoming more like Portugal as a positive point for why we should make this change. Why? Why should Denmark become more like Portugal? Why should we be intentionally aiming at making two civs more similar? That is preceisely why we should NOT make such a change.

If Denmark continues to be a world enemy (according to his personality), he's going to need to become more self-reliant on generating Great Admirals for happiness sources and Great Generals to become better entrenched.

I don't agree with the reasoning that Denmark should have its UA extended to naval ranged units. I like the emphasis on melee in both land and sea.

You say "We don't have many civs that buff all ships", but we have some (Spain, England). If you move Denmark's UA onto naval ranged units, then we have no civs that exclusively buff naval melee exclusively. So, again, why should we take a civ from a more unique UA and change it to be more similar to other civs' UAs? Both your arguments for these changes are about taking something unique about Denmark and making it more similar to another civ's bonus.

Yeah, 2 out of 43 aren't many civs? Especially with Ranged Navy ships getting nerfed to only attack units that are adjacent to the coast, how are Vikings supposed to perform their "coastal attacks." Sure you can do some embarking and disembarking, but why not go more?

Also, why stop at naval ranged units? What about submarines and carriers?

Sure, I don't see why not. I'll make an amendment later.

 

[pineappledan]

I don't know if the Civ 5 Font accepts that nor does it seem uniform with the rest of the UA titles.

Not a problem. It can handle it:

If Denmark continues to be a world enemy (according to his personality), he's going to need to become more self-reliant on generating Great Admirals for happiness sources and Great Generals to become better entrenched.

He doesn't need the same kind of bonus as Portugal has in order to be a "world enemy". He has strong bonuses already, and if they aren't sufficient, we should strengthen them, not give him Portugal's

Yeah, 2 out of 43 aren't many civs? Especially with Ranged Navy ships getting nerfed to only attack units that are adjacent to the coast, how are Vikings supposed to perform their "coastal attacks." Sure you can do some embarking and disembarking, but why not go more?

'not many' is more than 'none'.
I would prefer Denmark remain as the sole combined land/water melee civ.

 

[azum4roll]

Only some of the civs get to have endonym unique components

 

[Enginseer]

Amended (5-22) Proposal.

 

[Enginseer]

I will sponsor this.

 

[Stalker0]

I decided to play a good denmark game to refamiliarize myself with the civ. First of all, damn they are fun to play!

But second, I am more convinced that proposal A is an overall nerf to the civ. What I really found was that +25% base CS bonus is incredibly good for those amphibious landings (because I don't need healing I need raw power to hold the coast), and in city taking (I pillage the city tiles nearby and now I get a bonus for attack after attack after attack).

In comparison, the amount of extra healing and area damage I would consider a pretty bad tradeoff to lose such power.


I'm going to vote for the OG proposal, as I think its a few little buffs but keeps to the core power.

 

[pineappledan]

The Danish are placed low on the AI test games, but they aren’t weak. The AI has literally no clue how to use them. Denmark’s abilities help them do amphibious assaults, which the AI is generally bad at, and their kit rewards pillaging, which the AI only does to heal or knock out a strategic.

Lastly, all of their current bonuses that I propose to remove reward positioning, which AI are rubbish at. The AI is somewhat aware of the CS bonuses they will get for being on certain tiles, but they are bad at actually moving to and using them. The boat coast bonus, the neutral heal bonus, and the CS on tiles all units to be on specific tiles, based on terrain, ownership, and improvement.

• Their 25% CS bonus in particular rewards standing on a tile they have pillaged, but because Danish units don’t spend movement to pillage they can never end a unit’s turn by pillaging. They will always have to end their turn by moving or attacking. The AI does not know to stay put on a pillaged tile, and their No Movement cost to pillage makes them uniquely bad at using this ability, because at least if the AI could end their turn with a pillage action they would use this ability more simply by accident.
• Their neutral heal bonus is just… stupid. Neutral tiles disappear by the mid game, so this is an obsoleting combat bonus that once again rewards tile positioning that the AI cannot do well.
• The coast bonus is the exception, because the AI cannot help but use it, because the major objectives are all on the coastline. The AI is on these tiles simply because that's where cities are.

The AoE damage and increased heal I propose are both instant, on-pillage bonuses that the AI can use more effectively. They are not rewarded/punished for positioning in 3 separate ways like they are now.

As for getting the AI to pillage more, they should. It should be tied to one or more these abilities to get the AI to have a lower threshold for how it decides to pillage.
Maybe any unit with AOEOnPillage should always pillage if adjacent to an enemy unit? That seems sensible, and a great way to get the Danish to use their other stuff, like the yields on pillage more too.

 

[Stalker0]

The Danish are placed low on the AI test games, but they aren’t weak. The AI has literally no clue how to use them. Denmark’s abilities help them do amphibious assaults, which the AI is generally bad at, and their kit rewards pillaging, which the AI only does to heal or knock out a strategic.

Lastly, all of their current bonuses that I propose to remove reward positioning, which AI are rubbish at. The AI is somewhat aware of the CS bonuses they will get for being on certain tiles, but they are bad at actually moving to and using them. The boat coast bonus, the neutral heal bonus, and the CS on tiles all units to be on specific tiles, based on terrain, ownership, and improvement.

• Their 25% CS bonus in particular rewards standing on a tile they have pillaged, but because Danish units don’t spend movement to pillage they can never end a unit’s turn by pillaging. They will always have to end their turn by moving or attacking. The AI does not know to stay put on a pillaged tile, and their No Movement cost to pillage makes them uniquely bad at using this ability, because at least if the AI could end their turn with a pillage action they would use this ability more simply by accident.
• Their neutral heal bonus is just… stupid. Neutral tiles disappear by the mid game, so this is an obsoleting combat bonus that once again rewards tile positioning that the AI cannot do well.
• The coast bonus is the exception, because the AI cannot help but use it, because the major objectives are all on the coastline. The AI is on these tiles simply because that's where cities are.

The AoE damage and increased heal I propose are both instant, on-pillage bonuses that the AI can use more effectively. They are not rewarded/punished for positioning in 3 separate ways like they are now.

As for getting the AI to pillage more, they should. It should be tied to one or more these abilities to get the AI to have a lower threshold for how it decides to pillage.
Maybe any unit with AOEOnPillage should always pillage if adjacent to an enemy unit? That seems sensible, and a great way to get the Danish to use their other stuff, like the yields on pillage more too.

One idea that might work is giving a unit the +25% case CS as a promotion buff for 3 turns after a pillage. Its not quite the same, as sometimes you pillage with the first unit and then follow it up with another one, but it would keep the spirit of the idea but be more AI friendly.

One of the big losses by removing that bonus is that the Danes have the unique ability for their units to effectively be "next tier level" when on a pillage spot. This lets them stay competitive against more advanced civs and is effectively their equivalent of the "bonus zulu promotions, extra sweden attack/GG bonuses, assyria mega xp, etc" In comparison a bit more healing and a little bit of area damage is just not equivalent in any real way.

 

[pineappledan]

One idea that might work is giving a unit the +25% case CS as a promotion buff for 3 turns after a pillage. Its not quite the same, as sometimes you pillage with the first unit and then follow it up with another one, but it would keep the spirit of the idea but be more AI friendly

3 turns would be totally excessive. Just a bonus for the same turn that persists until the beginning of the beginning of their next turn would be sufficient.

But sounds like you’re in agreement with me at this point that the 25% CS bonus is supremely janky and needs to be changed substantially if it were to stay at all (which it shouldn’t)

One of the big losses by removing that bonus is that the Danes have the unique ability for their units to effectively be "next tier level" when on a pillage spot. This lets them stay competitive against more advanced civs and is effectively their equivalent of the "bonus zulu promotions, extra sweden attack/GG bonuses, assyria mega xp, etc" In comparison a bit more healing and a little bit of area damage is just not equivalent in any real way

You and I don’t agree on what Denmark is or where they should be, it seems. Denmark is not most comparable to Zulus or Sweden. In fact, it’s really important that Denmark Not be made more similar to the 1 other Scandinavian civ with an infantry UU.

The Danish are more comparable to the Aztecs. They have major economic incentives for warring (but not conquering), and an economy-centric early UB. I think people gloss over that extra +1 to all sea tiles and a very large % unit production bonus, in addition to the on pillage. Compare to Zulus have no reward for warring other than being good at it, only minor economic bonuses for unit maintenance and a UB that gives no Econ bonuses except for an extra +1 base yield (the runestone gives twice as much). Or compare to Sweden whose only extra yields in their whole kit only appear in late renaissance.

Zulu and Sweden need to have massive military potency bonuses for their units because they have no fallback. Denmark has more military bonuses than Aztecs, but not as much as those other two, and if we are going to push a certain way I think it should be more towards the Aztec playstyle (maybe by increasing the on pillage?) and less towards Sweden. Pushing the CS bonus as being totally central to the civ risks making Denmark and Sweden too similar, and then we reproduce the Germany/Austria problem, with two nearly-identical civs doing nearly identical things in-game.

 

[Stalker0]

3 turns would be totally excessive. Just a bonus for the same turn that persists until the beginning of the beginning of their next turn would be sufficient.

But sounds like you’re in agreement with me at this point that the 25% CS bonus is supremely janky and needs to be changed substantially if it were to stay at all (which it shouldn’t)

You and I don’t agree on what Denmark is or where they should be, it seems. Denmark is not most comparable to Zulus or Sweden. In fact, it’s really important that Denmark Not be made more similar to the 1 other Scandinavian civ with an infantry UU.

The Danish are more comparable to the Aztecs in my books. They have major economic incentives for warring (but not conquering), and an economy-centric early UB. I think people gloss over that the UB gives an extra +1 to all sea tiles and a very large % unit production bonus, in addition to the on pillage. Compare to Zulus have only minor economic bonuses for unit maintenance and whose UB gives no Econ bonuses except for an extra +1 base yield (the runestone gives twice as much). Or compare to Sweden whose only extra yields in their whole kit only appear in late renaissance.

Zulu and Sweden need to have massive military potency bonuses for their units because they have no fallback. Denmark has more military bonuses than Aztecs, but not as much as those other two, and if we are going to push a certain way I think it should be more towards the Aztec playstyle (maybe by increasing the on pillage?) and less towards Sweden. Pushing the CS bonus as being totally central to the civ risks making Denmark and Sweden too similar, and then we reproduce the Germany/Austria problem, with two nearly-identical civs doing nearly identical things in-game.

I am arguing based on what we have and what has been proposed.

None of the current proposals are pushing Denmark into a more economic playstyle. Right now the Danes are a total war civ, they cannot sit back on their laurels and let their economy see them to victory, they MUST be aggressively warring constantly to get the pillage and authority bonuses that keep them going. A few pittance bonuses on the runestone doesn't change that.

Your right that Denmark and Aztecs are similar....but they are still in the same general category of warmonger as Zulu and Sweden....they must war to be competitive, they don't have any core economic boosts in their kit that can keep them afloat. Contrast this to an Assyria for example, who has solid science bonuses from their UA and UB and can generate a large number of free techs with early conquests and just ride that wave. Assyria can war all the time if its wants, but it doesn't have to.

So unless that changes, Denmark must be a strong competitive war-maker to be a good civ, and right now the +25% CS bonus is the lynchpin for their warring power. If you want to remove that, they need a BIG something in return, and a little bit of healing and area damage ain't it.

As for the 3 turns, again I am basing this off the game I am playing right now. My units are spending lots of time in pillaged terrain, sometimes its the enemies, sometimes my own on defense, sometimes a unit leaves and another unit comes in on the same spot, somtimes its the 4 turns I'm sieging a city in its pillaged terrain, etc etc. A 1 turn buff does not cover that imo.

 

[pineappledan]

A) you have not tried either of the new proposals. Claiming that the heal and damage on pillage don’t cut it is pure, baseless speculation on your part. I have tried the extra heal on pillage on my Goths custom civ; it is quite strong and the AI does surprisingly well with them.

B) Aztecs pull off that same reward-for-warring playstyle with no combat bonuses except their UU and they do just fine in the AI rankings. Japan has both combat bonuses and rewards for warring and we are about to nerf them. Alleging that Denmark needs to have the pure “war better” power of Sweden or Zulus, while also having all their rewards for war, makes no sense.

You’re just pushing for an over-buff with this rhetoric. Denmark has plenty of power with the kit he has; if you don’t like my proposal you should be voting Nay. The original proposal is a pure buff that will only make Denmark more powerful in human hands while not improving their AI standing, because it doesn’t solve the underlying issue with the AI’s inability to use amphibious or pillage abilities. It will just exacerbate the problem.

 

[Stalker0]

A) you have not tried either of the new proposals. Claiming that the heal and damage on pillage don’t cut it is pure, baseless speculation on your part. I have tried the extra heal on pillage on my Goths custom civ; it is quite strong and the AI does surprisingly well with them.

B) Aztecs pull off that same reward-for-warring playstyle with no combat bonuses except their UU and they do just fine in the AI rankings. Japan has both combat bonuses and rewards for warring and we are about to nerf them. Alleging that Denmark needs to have the pure “war better” power of Sweden or Zulus, while also having all their rewards for war, makes no sense.

You’re just pushing for an over-buff with this rhetoric.

a) It is speculation based on watching my actual play. I've been looking at how often I would get extra healing versus using the benefit of my extra CS. The extra CS is coming up a LOT MORE OFTEN, much more than even I thought it would in my initial thoughts. So the CS bonus is both stronger and more frequent. So its not baseless.

b) I haven't argued for any buff actually, I never said that denmark needs even more juice.

Now your point about Aztecs is a good one, why are the aztecs competing so well? Is it because the Aztecs have such a strong start that they are able to carve out a big advantage and ride that wave? Possibly. Could it be that they are using religion as their economic engine whereas denmark doesn't normally found....again possibly. Maybe the on kill bonuses are just a lot more potent than the pillage ones.

So your point that a warmonger does not need zulus like bonuses to be competitive might be true....but they certainly need something. Right now we are removing major warfare bonuses from Denmark and replacing them with lesser ones, for a civ that is already doing poorly in teh rankings. I don't see how that could possibly lead to a competitive civ.

 

[pineappledan]

b) I haven't argued for any buff actually, I never said that denmark needs even more juice

Right here:

I'm going to vote for the OG proposal, as I think its a few little buffs but keeps to the core power

If you don’t think Denmark should be straight-up buffed then vote Nay.

Now your point about Aztecs is a good one, why are the aztecs competing so well? Is it because the Aztecs have such a strong start that they are able to carve out a big advantage and ride that wave? Possibly. Could it be that they are using religion as their economic engine whereas denmark doesn't normally found....again possibly. Maybe the on kill bonuses are just a lot more potent than the pillage ones.

I said it already:
They place low in AI games because AI has nothing that makes it pillage more as denmark, it functionally plays Denmark as if none of their bonuses exist. Unlike Aztecs winning wars or Japan simply fighting, you have to actually use Denmark differently, and the AI has no code to help them do that.

It’s not just the pillaging stuff either, everything in the Danish kit is exceptionally hard for the AI. It also does poorly on amphibious attacks, and it struggles to grasp how to take advantage of Denmark’s 3 different tile-based buffs.

And as I said before, even if you code them to know about their pillage abilities, the AI is way worse at using abilities that require specific unit positioning. They do far better with instant effects, and it’s easier to get the AI to use those better too. So if a tactical AI modder gets around to giving Denmark some attention, they will have an easier time getting the AI to use the abilities I have proposed. In the meantime, my Goths mod has demonstrated that the AI is fairly passable at using those abilities even when it doesn’t know they exist.

 

[ma_kuh]

I still think we should have given more non-total-war ways for Authority to affect economy. As it stands, if you "need" to go Authority, you're basically committed to taking cities. If you just want to do raiding stuff and peace out every 20 turns, the civ's entire kit needs to carry that, no real help from Policies. The play style is broad enough that it would be helpful to make the common eco elements like gold, production, science more of a baseline for Authority civs.

 

[Rekk]

If you don’t think Denmark should be straight-up buffed then vote Nay.

He did that too.

 

[andersw]

Im a bit slow on the uptake here but I feel the changes are a bit superficial.
I fully expect the problems for Denmark to remain.
Runestone is on the opposite side of where you want to go as warmonger and both paths mean late writing, unless you go science heavy first there is substantial risk for huge tech delay.
The UU doesnt keep promo +1 move so while initially strong it falls off heavy quite soon and no AI will dominate because of free amphibious+charge on a melee unit.
(there is also a minor issue of UU not lining up with armory, now many low exp units do you really want?)
So it will remain a warmonger civ with situational combat bonuses and a uu which is soon obsolete.
Maybe part of the issue is that the AI isnt good enough to handle melee units, maybe its a warmonger civ that too easily digs itself into a low science hole?
Sadly Im not sure either as to what would be an elegant solution.

 

[pineappledan]

The galley/trireme split might help a bit in that department. There is a melee boat that Denmark boosts and has a 25% prod bonus on the top side of the tree.

The berserkers are pretty great, imo, and they have an early unlock so their window than other medieval infantry units like the Samurai.