A slightly different religion topic

[PrincepsAmerica]

This article was listed on Wikipedia's frontpage today and I thought it might make for an interesting alternative to the normally confrontational topics which involve religion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_María_Robles_Hurtado

A Mexican priest who was recently canonized, the part of his life which most struck me was his death:

Hurtado recognized the likelihood of his being killed for his actions, and wrote a poem in which he explicitly stated, "I want to love you until martyrdom"[1]. He was finally arrested on 25 June 1927 for saying a Mass in the home of the Agraz family, who were hiding him at the time. He was found guilty, and sentenced to be hanged from an oak tree. The next day, before dawn, he was led to the tree. In a final display of compassion for his executioners, he offered a small votive candle he had in his pocket to them to help light the path to the tree where he would be hanged. Upon arriving there, he forgave the men for what they were about to do. He took the noose into his own hands, saying "Don’t dirty your hands" to the man who brought it, kissed it, and placed it around his own neck.

If the words noble or holy mean anything, this would be it.

So let's hear the opinion of every belief and creed we can. What do you think of this man?

 

[warpus]

He was an egoist - attempting to immortalize his name via martyrdom.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

Only took the first response to put a malicious slant on it.

I didn't give you atheists nearly enough credit!

Any atheists have a different opinion from warpus?

 

[warpus]

I'm not an atheist.

People who want to be martyrs are dangerous.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

I'm sorry for assuming warpus.

If they are dying for the wrong thing I suppose. If they are dying for the right, then I don't see how they are dangerous to anyone but themselves.

 

[warpus]

Dying for what you believe can be honourable.

Dying with the express purpose of becoming a martyr never should be.

 

[Elrohir]

I'm not an atheist.

People who want to be martyrs are dangerous.

Of course they are. But who they are dangerous to depends entirely upon who they are being a martyr for. This man was being a martyr with Christ foremost in his mind - he wasn't dangerous to the men around him, but to those who fought against allowing differences in Christianity to exist.

Muslim suicide bombers, which I imagine you are thinking of, want to be martyrs primarily to receive the reward they believe they will get, and getting that reward justifies doing horrific things in the name of God. (Blowing up civilians in a suicide bombing, for example)

These are two different acts with two different intentions. The act of martyrdom (If widely defined as simply dying for or because of your religious belief, faith, or doctrine) is not inherently good or bad. It depends upon what intentions you have, what beliefs you hold and what you do as a result.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

I don't see how being a martyr and dying for what you believe honorable as having any significant difference. The underlying motivation could be wrong in either case, but we have no evidence what that is aside for the person's words and actions. This man gave no hint at vainglory or worldliness in any of the (limited) information I've read about him.

For you, warpus, to automatically ascribe to him negative and selfish motives would require some evidence. Otherwise I would say it speaks to some kind of bias of yours.

Of course they are. But who they are dangerous to depends entirely upon who they are being a martyr for. This man was being a martyr with Christ foremost in his mind - he wasn't dangerous to the men around him, but to those who fought against allowing differences in Christianity to exist.

Actually he was killed by a secular government which basically outlawed religious expression.

 

[Hamlet]

What do you think of this man?

The manner of his death was relatively admirable, but in terms of his views he seems to have been a bit of a nutter based on the rest of the Wiki article.

 

[warpus]

These are two different acts with two different intentions. The act of martyrdom (If widely defined as simply dying for or because of your religious belief, faith, or doctrine) is not inherently good or bad. It depends upon what intentions you have, what beliefs you hold and what you do as a result.

I would never trust someone who wishes to be a martyr - he is willing to place his own life on the line to achieve perceived immortality. In my eyes such people are dangerous no matter what ideology they subscribe to.

For you, warpus, to automatically ascribe his motives to something negative and selfish would require some evidence. Otherwise I would say it speaks to some kind of bias of yours.

I simply think that people who wish to be martyrs have at least 2 of these qualities:

1. Deluded
2. Dangerous
3. Selfish

Neither combination is worthy of respect.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

The manner of his death was relatively admirable, but in terms of his views he seems to have been a total nutter based on the rest of the Wiki article.

Which part seemed particularly "nutty" to you?

Faithfully following the religion of a third of the world?

Hearing the confessions of hundreds long into the night?

His caring for of the sick?

Maybe his resistance against a tyrannical government?

Just wondering if you could be specific.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

I simply think that people who wish to be martyrs have at least 2 of these qualities:

1. Deluded
2. Dangerous
3. Selfish

Neither combination is worthy of respect.

Well you still didn't explain the difference between your vague concept of dying for honor and the traditional concept of martyrdom and now you are basically explaining that you dismiss anyone like this man out of hand based on assumptions that can't really be argued against. I guess you're about done here then?

 

[Hamlet]

Which part seemed particularly "nutty" to you?

Hurtado proposed the creation of a huge cross to be placed in the geographic center of Mexico, which he said would be symbolic of how Mexico recognized Christ as its king, and organized a public ceremony for the laying of the cornerstone of the cross, in direct violation of the existing constitution.

Now mabye you could consider that as diliberate hyperbole on his part in the pursuit of opposition to an authoritarian government, but combined with the rest of the details of the article it suggests to me a basic hysterical religious fanaticism about his character.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

Now mabye you could consider that as diliberate hyperbole on his part in the pursuit of opposition to an authoritarian government, but combined with the rest of the details of the article it suggests to me a basic hysterical religious fanatcism about his character.

Oh alright, you could have just said this one:

Faithfully following the religion of a third of the world?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

What do you think of this man?

He knew what matters and what doesnt.

 

[warpus]

Well you still didn't explain the difference between your vague concept of dying for honor and the traditional concept of martyrdom and now you are basically explaining that you dismiss anyone like this man out of hand based on assumptions that can't really be argued against. I guess you're about done here then?

This guy wanted to be martyr; he guided his actions with this goal in mind, especially with what happened at his execution.

If his main goal would have actually been different; ie. a fight against the tyrannical anti-religious government, without the express desire for martyrdom, I would have had an entirely different opinion of this man.

As it remains, he doesn't deserve my respect.

 

[Hamlet]

Oh alright, you could have just said this one:

I don't find religious people particularly objectionable. But I do find fanatics not only objectionable, but dangerous. And this man seems to me to have been at the higher end of the register in terms of fanaticism. As an aside, opposition to an authoritarian government does not a flawless person make.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

He knew what matters and what doesnt.

And isn't it neat how threatening that is to some?

They could just shrug and move on, but no, they actually take the time to conceive of things that must have been wrong with him.

I don't find religious people particularly objectionable. But I do find fanatics not only objectionable, but dangerous. And this man seems to me to have been at the higher end of the register in terms of fanaticism. As an aside, opposition to an authoritarian government does not a flawless person make.

No one has called him flawless, nor did I cite his opposition to an authoritarian government as his only characteristic of note. You use fanaticism as a very nebulous term, here I'm taking it to mean "passion for beliefs which aren't mine and thus I am suspicious of". Am I wrong?

 

[Hamlet]

They could just shrug and move on, but no, they actually take the time to conceive of things that must have been wrong with him.

You were the one who posted a thread asking what people made of this man's character. If you don't like other people's opinions, then don't ask for them.

No one has called him flawless, nor did I cite his opposition to an authoritarian government as his only characteristic of note.

You didn't, but you originally only presented an account of the means of his death. Many people have died heroic deaths and had frankly appaling careers. You need to look beyond their death to gain the measure of them.

You use fanaticism as a very nebulous term, here I'm taking it to mean "passion for beliefs which aren't mine and thus I am suspicious of". Am I wrong?

Not exactly. 'Passionate and unswerving indulgence in irrational or emotional belief (secular or religious)' would be my definition. Or something similar.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

And isn't it neat how threatening that is to some?

They could just shrug and move on, but no, they actually take the time to conceive of things that must have been wrong with him.

Its that most people arent able to conceive of anything more important than their own existence. Cant really blame them, its one of the most powerful instincts people possess.