Aggressive AI = The Real Civ?

As far as I am concerned.... it's all just scale.

If I fight the AI which has 100 troops and I have 200.... then for all intents and purposes, it's the same as if the AI has 10 troops and I have 20 - yes the numbers bend a little, I am not going to argue that the latter is entirely equal.... but the one thing I can be sure of - in the first case, I'll be bored after one battle and switch to play something else! :p :lol:

It's all for people who like big numbers! :D

Don't take the last remark seriously or I'll bribe Monty to declare on you.
 
As far as I am concerned.... it's all just scale.

If I fight the AI which has 100 troops and I have 200.... then for all intents and purposes, it's the same as if the AI has 10 troops and I have 20 - yes the numbers bend a little, I am not going to argue that the latter is entirely equal.... but the one thing I can be sure of - in the first case, I'll be bored after one battle and switch to play something else! :p :lol:

It's all for people who like big numbers! :D

Don't take the last remark seriously or I'll bribe Monty to declare on you.

That's all fair to say.

Aggressive (girlyman) AI, in that case, is not just a scaled version of sandbox.
 
Aggressive (girlyman) AI, in that case, is ... just a scaled version of sandbox.

I've rearranged your quote to suit my argument without having to type so much!! :lol:


Oh - and don't invite Monty to afternoon tea! ;)
 
I've rearranged your quote to suit my argument without having to type so much!! :lol:


Oh - and don't invite Monty to afternoon tea! ;)

lol, well perhaps I need to ask what you mean by scaling.

If by scaling you mean unit numbers are scaled I'll completely disagree.

If by scaling you mean unit numbers as well as many other AI parameters are scaled then I will agree with you. It's these other parameters that get affected which are what I like about girlyman AI.

Oh and it's not just the war declaration percentages. There are other things which are scaled.
 
As I can see from what you said, you don't dispute the fact that playing Aggressive AI means you almost always have to spam units like the AI, do you? Only then can you be sure that you're safe, no matter what the diplomatic relations with your neighbours are like. While that is certainly realistic in a way, Civ4 doesn't have a very good system of unit maintenance in that you can afford inordinately large armies. This then often leads to a sort of arms race with the AI, who can easily build more units than you on the higher levels. Building and managing a lot of units is something that I do not like to do and is what I would say is the flaw of the diplomatic system under Aggressive AI (in that it leaves you no choice but to go through this tedium).

I find that it is enough to have my military only big enough to defend from a possible attack from a neighbor in Agg. AI. But I ALWAYS(meaning in my 3 games with agg. AI on in BTS heh) try to have the same religions as my neighbors and good diplomatic relationship.
If the things get bad, I can at least ask them to help defending me.

By the way, talking about it, in my last game I had Hatty and Ethiopian guy(his name?) as my neighbors. I speedily converted them to my religion and made them Friendly.
Later on I saw Pacal II with a different religion(founder) a bit farther away, with Ethiopia and Egypt between him and me.
I didn't want that religion spreading, nor I wanted the pain of Pacal II expanding fast, so I bribed 2 techs to Etiophia to enter in war with him and got it from free by Hatty.
All I wanted was actually to make them hate each other so they don't convert to his religion, but they actually attacked him and Egypt even got one city!
Now THAT is nice, because it seems that in normal AI if I ever bribe the AI in war, they hardly do anything against each other..
 
Such as?

About the only one I can think of right now is Time Wars Take - that's also scaled considerably!! :lol:

Well I am not talented enough to examine the code myself but for your benefit I will list a few.

1.
As I mentioned in a post above somewhere, in a agg AI game of mine gilgamesh was horribly underdefending many of his cities. This while most other empires in the game were marching around with much larger armies, including myself and I was warring with Gilgamesh. Since he did not adjust the number of units to an appropriate level for others in the game, this would seem to be evidence that Agg AI is not just about scaling the number of units. He was playing a very weak military game. And I'll emphasise again he was NOT actively trying to rectify the situation because he continued to build wonders. I can't remember exactly now but I think he was still building a wonder when I captured the city. I do still have the savegames by the way.

2.
I have seen this myself on several occasions. On Agg AI, AIs are more likely to expand aggressively even at the risk of leaving cities completely undefended. This is a feature of agg AI I don't like but I guess I should mention it because it is different to sandbox.

3.
1. AI civs that are close to reaching a Domination victory recognize that and are more likely to declare war, in particular with Aggressive AI.
source

4.
Blake said:
Aggressive AI is not a toothless setting on watery maps, it will launch more credible naval invasions.
source

Number 3 and 4 I am less certain about so I have simply quoted others. In particular I am uncertain whether number 4 differentiates sandbox and girlyman AI or not. The wording suggests it does though.

This is not a very good list but at least it's a few.
 
Ahhh hmm - maybe I do need to explain what I meant by "scale" because they're not quite examples of what i was saying. I didn't just mean "differences".

The best definition I can find is "A proportion used in determining the dimensional relationship of a representation to that which it represents:"

In other words...... 10 can be used to represent 1 on a different scale.

What I meant was that the number of troops between AGG:AI and the standard game are simply scaled. If I have 1000 and you have 1000, there is little difference than if I have 10 and you have 10 - your chances are not better or worse, there is just a larger number representing the same balance as before.
 
There are other things which are scaled.

Oh, I should have said other things are different, which is actually what I meant. ie. to show something is not just scaling, you show there are differences which cannot be explained by scaling alone.
 
Agg AI basically turns of the AI units caps, anyone know what they actually are per chance?
 
@Grimus:

Although, I dislike the OP, your latest posts have been entirely reasonable, and I find them interesting to read. They are stimulating enough that I would like to break my relative silence and offer you an alternate perspective.

As I can see from what you said, you don't dispute the fact that playing Aggressive AI means you almost always have to spam units like the AI, do you? Only then can you be sure that you're safe, no matter what the diplomatic relations with your neighbours are like. While that is certainly realistic in a way, Civ4 doesn't have a very good system of unit maintenance in that you can afford inordinately large armies. This then often leads to a sort of arms race with the AI, who can easily build more units than you on the higher levels. Building and managing a lot of units is something that I do not like to do and is what I would say is the flaw of the diplomatic system under Aggressive AI (in that it leaves you no choice but to go through this tedium).

I prefer games where you can compete more with the AI in the economic department, employing various long and short term strategies, instead of just building a large number of units and waiting for the AI to fall behind due to the arms race. And when I employ a diplomatic strategy as part of my plans, I expect to see it work as long as I've planned and executed it well. If I really invest in a relationship with a neighbour, I'm almost guaranteed to not be interested in attacking him/her. I have even managed to coexist with Napoleon peacefully on the same continent when he's my only neighbour left (I took out the other one). And I just didn't see the point of attacking him even though he was a smaller and less advanced power. I had diplomatic victory in my sights (which, if you want to talk about effeciency of winning, can often better domination or conquest through an early victory date).

That doesn't mean I'm shy of doing a rush or of taking out neighbours, though. Sometimes it is necessary for the economy. However, when I do go to war, I'm aware that war doesn't win me the game by itself. In fact, it can even be counter-productive, especially when it saddles me with extra upkeep and lots of WW. War also has the sticky side of building upon itself like a tumour - once you capture some cities you want or need to keep, you might have to capture the cities surrounding those to keep them, and you might have to finish off a neighbour who might now be permanently pissed. I stand to lose a lot by falling behind the rest of the world. Note that I play on higher difficulties (Emperor or Immortal), where this is more likely to happen and where the normal AI isn't so defenseless anyway.

I have my reasons for prefering the normal AI, which I find challenging enough. It's not that I'm dumb or that my ego needs to be stoked by defeating a bunch of weak defenseless AI, as many people like to say about players like me.

::shakes hand::

I'm sorry if the OP was offensive to anyone. I really was sincerely asking the rest of the community if I was missing out on something because I'm continuously tryng to find the most challenging, fair, and fun gaming experience I can. I’m also not as concerned much by what others may do, if I happen to disagree or prefer differently. I just care about my own, little worlds which I create and play in during singleplay.

Though, like others, perhaps I do care when others criticize my way of playing, otherwise I wouldn't be posting in this thread! :)

I wasn't trying to cause a big stir of emotions. I came across Sir Blake's post and was shocked at the time because I never thought of EVER trying out Aggressive AI because I had misunderstandings of it. But after reading everyone's experiences and views, and trying it out for myself, I've grown to like it. Who knows if I’ll stick with it or if it's just a new flavor of the month, and I'm sure I'll go back to Normal AI and try that out as well after the whole experience, but right now I enjoy it. Maybe I'll throw in Raging Barbs too with Aggressive, I don't know, I'll continue to experiment and see what I like.

Yes, indeed, when playing with Aggressive AI and their unit spam... you MUST spam units yourself, otherwise you're a sitting duck. This is why some may not like Aggressive AI, for this aspect (very big aspect) alone. It all comes down to your personal taste and style of play. I’ll admit, sometimes I may even say to myself, “Boy, this might be getting out of hand now.”, while I’m cranking out units, lol. But the little kid in me just thinks it’s “way cool” when battle ensues.

So, I can see where some may believe the unit spam a bit tedious and distracting from all the other good aspects of the game. I’m a bit like that too, but on the opposite side of the spectrum. I play on standard-sized maps because I don’t like managing many cities, especially when I’m conquering lands. I also prefer not to deal with so many AI personalities in one game – they can get annoying continuously hailing me and asking/demanding things, haha.

I also don't care much for realism, and seldom compare it to that anyway (most of the time anyway), because it IS a game and balance of play is my biggest concern, even to sacrifice realism. But to others, again, maybe realism IS important since it IS a historical game.

You're right about the unit maintenance too, it's nasty, but luckily it hurts everybody in the game with their armies. Though, like you said, on higher difficulties the AI certainly gains an advantage because of its discount on things like that. That's where hopefully the human's battle tactics overcome those benefits they receive... same as in other peaceful aspects of the game.

Also, for instance, when pursuing a diplomatic victory (a victory I haven’t ever tried yet!) it WOULD make sense to probably not crush your little, weak neighbors because they probably have friends too and you want everybody to like you. Only recently have I ever accomplished an alternative means of victory, a culture victory… usually my victories are either domination or space race.

You're an exceptionally skilled player, there should be no doubt about that by anybody, and you contribute some good stuff to this community. Everybody has their own style of play, their own preferences... even the pros. ;) That's also what's great about the game, you can pursue your victory in many different ways, as well as customizing it and playing the way you like. Either way, if you’re playing at your appropriate difficulty level and not seeking to exploit, Civ is challenging no matter what AI you’re playing on, it’s just a different style of game.

All in all, it pretty much comes down to one, particular, wise saying by Confucius: “Hey, whatever floats your boat.” :D
 
I don't consider having to have more than 1 warrior per city defending my empire "unit spam", which is something it's fairly easy to get away with in Normal AI unless you're next to one of the crazy AIs.
 
I don't consider having to have more than 1 warrior per city defending my empire "unit spam", which is something it's fairly easy to get away with in Normal AI unless you're next to one of the crazy AIs.


Have you actually played AGG:AI?

You need a damned sight more than a couple of troops per city... you need spam levels of troops, no 2 ways about it.
 
Have you actually played AGG:AI?

You need a damned sight more than a couple of troops per city... you need spam levels of troops, no 2 ways about it.

What? Wanna my save? One archer or axeman(while there is maceman and longbow already) in my core cities and not that much in the rest, just half of the AI with biggest power. This AI was very busy waging wars against others..But the 2 cities she got are going back to the owner by the AP I can see LOL :p
But now she(Baudicca? Cant spell the name right) stopped waging, and is furious with me because I refused like 5 times to go to war -.- So I am the next one probably, or maybe she just attacks the same guy again. Anyway I am now building military in some cities, but certainly not much in the cities I want legendary culture on! :D
I am going to win cultural if I can, it is all about strategy..
Although the AI in my game(agg. AI on) is building a lot of wonders -,-
I bet Hathy is going to cultural.
 
Re-read the post that set me off, and tell me that doesn't sound like a dick. You made several unfounded assumptions about how I play the game (did I ever say anything about roleplay?) and used value-laden terms to describe them.



Regardless, the main reason I'm posting is to show the stats from my latest non-Aggressive AI game. This is the killed list for the first war I fought in the game. It started with Justinian invading, then just as he was pushed back Suvaryaman and his vassals, Ragnar and Pacal, invaded.



So as you can see, non-Aggressive does not necessarily mean peaceful.
EDIT: If that looks like I slaughtered them in great carloads without taking damage myself, I should point out that I was using mostly Cossacks and Riflemen, which don't show up on there because I didn't kill any incoming. I was only a little ahead in technology, but I had the key techs. And, for the record, the war never left my own borders.
 
What? Wanna my save? One archer or axeman(while there is maceman and longbow already) in my core cities and not that much in the rest, just half of the AI with biggest power.

I didnt say in your city - I said per city.

If you have 10 cities and your entire army consists of 10-15 troops, then yes, I would like to see that save because even on standard setting your power would be at the bottom of the graph. ;)
 
Per city. . . I'd probably expect a minimum of 5 troops every game. Three decent defenders, two decent attackers. If only to go out and harrass enemy troop movements when the AI is dumb enough to declare war, or to bust the barbarians before they trample your improvements.

Of course if the AI is feilding multiple stacks of 80+ troops, as reported previously in this thread, then your going to need a LOT more defenders IN each city.

Even if I'm defending with 3 rifles against stacks of 80 swordsmen eventually the city WILL fall. My big questions when I see reports of this kind of unit spam are:

(1) How is the AI supporting that size of an army to begin with?

(2) How is the AI surviving the war weariness and extra support costs of that many troops outside borders and at war?

(3) Why would the AI programmer (Blake), seeing this was possible, consider allowing this unit spam to be an improvement to the AI, rather than a BUG in both gameplay and game balance?

I have only read about stacks of 80+ units, and I'd love to see a save showing such a stack, but if they do exist, and are somehow supportable by a civ with 6-8 cities . . . then I'd have to consider that to be a BUG. Something to be fixed, not exploited. Of course that's only my opinion and others are free to disagree.
 
I have only read about stacks of 80+ units, and I'd love to see a save showing such a stack, but if they do exist, and are somehow supportable by a civ with 6-8 cities . . . then I'd have to consider that to be a BUG. Something to be fixed, not exploited. Of course that's only my opinion and others are free to disagree.

In BTS I am yet to see a stack with more than 30 units. But then again, I only play noble and rarely Prince.
Anyway the wars of the AI seems very calculated...OK no very, just much more than before :D
In my game, I made 2 AIs declare war on other AI. I didn't expect anything from this war, because if you bribe the AI in a war, they rarely do anything, right?
So what was my surprise when I see stacks of about 5 units(each time) from those 2 AIs passing by me going o the other AI? Now each of those 2 AIs have one city there each...And that is because the other AI only had 4 cities during the war.
The last stack I saw, came from the Celtic(the new LH). It was with about 20-25 units, with 1 stack of 10 units or so + various stacks of around 5 units. Each of them moving for a specific city, invading the city, healing in the city, and going to the next.
She only got 2 cities form Ethiopia because they bribed for peace..
That was aggressive AI, and in my opinion they used they stacks in very good ways.
You can see that by the fact that the difference of score of me + Hathy + Ethiopia(those 2 were the AIs I bribed into war against other) + Celtic is never much bigger than 50, and always varying.
Pacal II has half our score, but he is the one who got the attack from me + the other 2 AIs early in the game.
So until now it is fun!! I didnt even meet the AIs from the other continent yet :) .


@Spearthrower: I can't enter in the game right now(i.e. the computer that can handle da power of CIV4 is from my girlfriend and she is using it), and I can't remember what I have. But believe me, my power graph is half from the strongest, and i still didn't get attacked.
I will see it later!
 
In 1 aggressive AI game, my power bar was second (playing as Ethiopia/Monarch) but Khmer decided to have a go anyway..... I saw no less than 300 troops cross Egypt's borders (my vassal) in stacks of approximately 30. Of course, they were cavalry/infantry/artillery and I had bombers and tanks so it was an utter destruction, but the fight took approximately 2 hours......
 
I have tested several games with otherwise equal settings, and here are my findings:

"Normal AI": AIs tech faster but it's quite easy to avoid being attack even with minimal defense. Fun setting if you intend to play peacefully.

"Aggressive AI": AIs tech slower, but so do you as you NEED defense. The Ancient and Classical eras are especially hard as you cannot afford too many troops. Overall quite a bit more difficult.
 
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