Am I wrong to respect the person in my avatar ... Heinz Guderian ?

[kiwitt]

I have already received 3 messages (from the same person) accusing me of being a Nazi. Which is quite hurtful and reported it accordingly, as I am partly Jewish).

I see Heinz Guderian as simply a Panzer General first. i.e. his work product. He does appear to have being a "Nazi" (member of the National Socialists), but I suspect nearly every WWII German General was or had to have been in order to retain their rank.

Similarly, I saw Michael Jackson for his work product, and not his personal life.

(EDIT: AVATAR Changed following in depth discussion as below)

 

[LightSpectra]

Guderian is doubtlessly one of the greatest commanders in history, but that's all the worse because he was giving such an edge to the Nazis.

Don't give me the "he was a brilliant tool for an evil cause" bit. If he was smart enough to annihilate the French Army, he was smart enough to know good from evil, as people like Stauffenberg and Beck did. Because he was skilled and refused to enact moral judgment, he exacerbated the length of World War II; so no, I don't think he's a figure worthy of respect any more than I think Charles Manson should be praised for running a cult well.

 

[kiwitt]

However, enacting "moral judgement" as you called it would obviously meant his death as many were killed who opposed Hitler. Even Rommel who was very far removed from the actual plotters was encouraged to commit suicide.

 

[LightSpectra]

However, enacting "moral judgement" as you called it would obviously meant his death as many were killed who opposed Hitler. Even Rommel who was very far removed from the actual plotters was encouraged to commit suicide.

Even if it were a bad thing to be martyred for justice, he could have at the very least simply resigned from his position in the army and done nothing for the Nazi regime.

 

[Maimonides]

1. Yes, you are wrong.

2. There's no such thing as "partly Jewish." You either are or you aren't. You aren't.

 

[kiwitt]

It is never a good thing to be martyred, as you only have one life and it should be respected, and I also doubt if his martyrdom would have made any impact on the Nazi's hold on power.

I doubt he would have ever done that, as he came from a military family and as such there is instilled in him a sense of duty. Also, from our perspective of "hindsight", we would be wrong to "judge" him, in the world he was in. The Nazi's were infusing a sense of pride in Germany at the time and many of the leaderships crimes were well hidden from the general population, until much later, although as a senior officer he would have know about these. To be aligned with the Nazi's at the time was considered good citizenship.

As to my Jewishness: My grandfather was a slave-labourer for WWII Germany as he was 1/4 Jewish by blood, any more and they may have exterminated him and I would not exist.

 

[Masada]

Personal opinion: it doesn't make you a Nazi, any more than my avatar makes me a proponent of White Australia.

 

[bob_page]

Nothing wrong with it by me.

 

[civ_king]

OMG humans, I'm glad I'm a Communist Tank...

That's not very nice of the person to harass kiwitt

PS LightSpectra your "Aborted baby cries before cremation" link gives a 404 error

 

[holy king]

you know, apart from working for the third reich when you should know the frack better, earning your money by being a tank commander isnt particularly noble either.
it's the whole professionally blowing up people thing that is kind of apalling, isnt it?

dont get me wrong, there are certainly times when you have to make it your profession to blow people up, but it isnt something you should expect to be lauded for. or feel good about.

 

[holy king]

oh, and yeah the german word for "tank" is "panzer".

that's why i call an american tank a panzer when speaking german. not tank.

 

[Quackers]

don't take it too seriously

england isn't mine

 

[superisis]

I have already received 3 messages (from the same person) accusing me of being a Nazi. Which is quite hurtful and reported it accordingly, as I am partly Jewish).

I see Heinz Guderian as simply a Panzer General first. i.e. his work product. He does appear to have being a "Nazi" (member of the National Socialists), but I suspect nearly every WWII German General was or had to have been in order to retain their rank.

Similarly, I saw Michael Jackson for his work product, and not his personal life.

One can admire a person for a specific trait (I suspect you like the guy for his abilities as a general and commander). Christopher Columbus was a man with hideous views on the indigenous people he encountered in the West Indies. But one can admire him for the spirit and sense of adventure that sent him there.

 

[Godwynn]

I have already received 3 messages (from the same person) accusing me of being a Nazi. Which is quite hurtful and reported it accordingly, as I am partly Jewish).

He/she is hypersensitive and wrong.

I see Heinz Guderian as simply a Panzer General first. i.e. his work product. He does appear to have being a "Nazi" (member of the National Socialists), but I suspect nearly every WWII German General was or had to have been in order to retain their rank.

Similarly, I saw Michael Jackson for his work product, and not his personal life.

That's fine, don't let them force you to censor yourself.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

If you only respect Heinz for his military skills, then you don't respect Heinz, but his military skills.
And as long as it is legit to have a passion for military education, this certainly is legit as well.

 

[LightSpectra]

Personal opinion: it doesn't make you a Nazi, any more than my avatar makes me a proponent of White Australia.

Having an avatar for parody's sake (which I assume it is for your case) is a different example. My avatar was at one point Kaiser Wilhelm II with the under text "You English are Mad." The topic creator appears to genuinely respect Guderian as a human being; at least to the point of excusing him for not standing up to Hitler.

PS LightSpectra your "Aborted baby cries before cremation" link gives a 404 error

Thanks for telling me.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Having an avatar for parody's sake (which I assume it is for your case) is a different example. My avatar was at one point Kaiser Wilhelm II with the under text "You English are Mad." The topic creator appears to genuinely respect Guderian as a human being; at least to the point of excusing him for not standing up to Hitler.

It doesn't make him a Nazi. It doesn't make him anything appealing either.

 

[LightSpectra]

It doesn't make him a Nazi. It doesn't make him anything appealing either.

I didn't say he was a Nazi, I just think he's giving his affections to someone who doesn't deserve it.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I didn't say he was a Nazi, I just think he's giving his affections to someone who doesn't deserve it.

...You're right. In the future, I shall vow not to post first thing in the morning.

 

[holy king]

wrong thread.