The baker is the villain of the piece. He didn't refuse because he was a christian, he refused because he was a bigot.
Baking Cakes and Discrimination: Or, "What Would Jesus Do?"
- Thread starter Cutlass
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The baker is the villain of the piece. He didn't refuse because he was a christian, he refused because he was a bigot.
Lexicus
Deity
Yes, and I want to get in on this three-person-plus-cat marriage thing, sounds freaky deaky and I like that
Timsup2nothin
Deity
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I'll bet you really miss the good old days when you could go to a whites only restaurant, before all those restaurant owners got "persecuted."
Berzerker
Deity
Jesus said marriage was between a man and a woman. Now he may not have meant that to exclude polygamy, gay marriage or other arrangements, but I can see why Christians would oppose gay marriage on that alone. I dont think Jesus did, he was addressing divorce law and the incident with the adulteress shows how he felt about the state punishing people for being free. Just depends on where to draw the line, if freedom is that line then the only people using coercion or constraint in that case were the plaintiffs.
Or a gay baker with fundie Muslim/Christian customers who want the state to kill them.
I never supported Jim Crow and I was alive back then. Thats one of the reasons I'm not a Democrat, they were the villains in my formative years. And restaurant owners were persecuted, people were required by law and the KKK to segregate. If a restaurant owner didn't do as told they'd be punished. Your 'logic' requires us to believe people were free under Jim Crow. And since I've repeatedly drawn the ire of Democrats here - including you - for criticizing their party for slavery and Jim Crow, you already know how I feel. But you accuse me of supporting their evil anyway?
Jesus also said judge not lest you be judged and do onto others as you would have them do onto you. People who discriminate are not followers of Jesus.
Lexicus
Deity
Maybe you can quote him?
That's exactly how whataboutism works.
Do you want to marry me and as many cats as Valka will allow us to adopt?
Lexicus
Deity
Yes! Yes, of course I do! *sniffle*
Lexicus
Deity
We can get it through the cats, undoubtedly.
Timsup2nothin
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If you can't see the parallel between "forcing (racial) desegregation" on restaurant owners and "forcing (sexual orientation) desegregation" on restaurant owners then as usual there is no point trying to talk to you.
Lexicus
Deity
I think Berzerker's problem with segregation wasn't that it had a discriminatory effect on black people, it was that it forced property owners to discriminate even if they didn't want to (even though basically all of them wanted to).
He's not judging anyone. He's refusing to bake a cake honoring an act he believes is sinful. If a Muslim refused to bake an alcoholic cake for a liberal Muslim couple, no one would care - least of all the courts.
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
But Republicans are terrified of Sharia law ?
Berzerker
Deity
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.- Matt 7:1-5
He was warning hypocrites about judging others
“If another believer sins, rebuke that person; then if there is repentance, forgive. Even if that person wrongs you seven times a day and each time turns again and asks forgiveness, you must forgive.” - Luke 17:1-4
And urging his followers to judge with righteousness...But this is all aside from the issue, many Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc, oppose gay marriage on religious grounds and dont want to be forced to participate. I can understand that... If we can compel a baker who is creating the cake can we compel a priest to sanctify the marriage? If not, why?
Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?”
3 “What did Moses command you?” he replied.
4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”
5 “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied.
6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’
7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8 and the two will become one flesh.’So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”- Mark 10:2-9
I see both as problems but I dont see opinion polls to support "basically all of them". If all of them wanted segregation they didn't need a law. Not everyone would have segregated if they were free and thats why the laws were passed. They didn't want a competitive market deciding if segregation should exist because they'd lose.
Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument
What is your argument? Can I agree with it and acknowledge Hillary's guilt or does your argument require me to ignore her guilt? When the Pharisees brought an adulteress before Jesus he charged her would-be executioners with hypocrisy. They didn't accuse Jesus of 'whataboutism' and cast their stones. Trump tried to get dirt on Hillary and Hillary did get dirt on Trump. Both are guilty, thats not 'whataboutism', thats just reality. Looks like a term invented by a hypocrite who got tired of people pointing to their hypocrisy. "How dare you call me a hypocrite as I cast stones at others! Thats whataboutism!"
bernie14
Filter Manipulator
I read the bible old and new testaments in my late teens....i have two "born again" Christian sisters ...the ones that wave their hands and play "rock" at church and "stick to those of the same yoke" types....seems jesus said some cool things, but Paul was a dick
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Berzerker
Deity
c) isn't a nation, but she did get dirt on Trump from foreigners in both the UK and Russia. Now whats this about attacking our election? Plenty of people want to influence the outcome, they're not attacking the election for doing so.
I said accusing a Christian baker of religious tyranny for refusing to participate in a gay wedding in a thread about the Taliban takes the cake. Your response was to accuse me of supporting Jim Crow. Thats illogical, if I dont want the state making his decisions why would I support Jim Crow? That was the state deciding for everyone. As for your parallel, I dont believe in forcing segregation or desegregation. I believe the market is the most peaceful means to reducing racism, maybe thats why racists outlawed the market under Jim Crow.
