Balance Feedback

[EugeneStyles]

Instead of balancing you add disruptive component and then increase the amplitude as foolish child trying not to fall from a log by wavering his hands more...

No. This is not helpful or productive. The funny thing is, if you were less of an =|@, I might partially agree with you.

Please do us all a favor and just die.

 

[Elm]

Not complaining about the health system here . However while playing, I have noticed lots of messages about AI players getting Healers (gp). Maybe the ai should be changed to not prioritize healers? Or healer gp slots should not be available so early in the game? Actually, that may be better. Not sure how late game they should be though...

 

[Tsathoggua]

No. This is not helpful or productive. The funny thing is, if you were less of an =|@, I might partially agree with you.

Please do us all a favor and just die.

If he had made that comment back when the one of mine that *he* quoted was fresh, this would have been absolutely on the ball. Maybe not productive, but feedback doesn't always have to contain explicit instructions on what needs to be change.

As it is, we'll have to see how the new changes play out with us peons out here. I'm not especially fond of seeing even more buildings added to the game just to deal with health balance issues (IMO, city management is becoming dangerously bloated at this point), but I do like the idea of placing a greater importance on strategic city placement, which is where this is all ultimately headed.

 

[Rainbow Sand]

Instead of balancing you add disruptive component and then increase the amplitude as foolish child trying not to fall from a log by wavering his hands more...

On second thought, why not reduce unhealth per pop to former 1 but add a LOT of horrible epidemic events? Bang and -25 health... bang and -2 health per turn unless 'cured' mitigated... this way all this 'UGE health shall be needed, but healers shall not crowd GP bar - all happy...

 

[Viatos]

On second thought, why not reduce unhealth per pop to former 1 but add a LOT of horrible epidemic events? Bang and -25 health... bang and -2 health per turn unless 'cured' mitigated... this way all this 'UGE health shall be needed, but healers shall not crowd GP bar - all happy...

That sounds...

...completely awful.

I do wish health would be simple again, though. Additional buildings doesn't sound like fun, but if I can just spam them and not worry about my GPP pool or balancing plot selection versus wasting production on mitigation or OH GOD IT'S FLOODPLAINS RUN SAVE THE CHILDREN then I'll be happy. So I'm waiting patiently for the new system details, and hoping it's something like "Mushroom Cave Farm - Mushrooms in range? +3 Health for 100 hammers!" that is minimally intrusive on gameplay.

I think city placement is already pretty strategic, except for the hardcore terraforming crew, who generally have their own issues ("Slaves! Slaves! My 8-population kingdom for a few more ing Slaves!") to deal with. And are getting changed, I know, before somebody says it, but I doubt it'll really affect this. Just have to fort mana more aggressively.

 

[Rainbow Sand]

That sounds...
...completely awful.

Indeed it does! The very point is that it is grotesquely more awful than... Opera?.. designs and thus more fun!

 

[isthmus]

Indeed it does! The very point is that it is grotesquely more awful than... Opera?.. designs and thus more fun!

Yet again, that's not particularly nice of you...the designers of this mod I believe are perfectly willing to accept criticism, but this is actually just plain insulting. Please stop, thanks.

I actually like the new health system, and I believe you're missing the point of it that it's meant to slow growth, not annihilate populations in the space of a few turns as you've suggested above.
You'd still have to devote as many resources to health as is currently required, just to be able to deal with those events.

 

[hbar]

Guys ... don't feed the trolls.

 

[Valkrionn]

My thought exactly. First you add those healers for addition's sake, then you notice that overall health generation exceeds possible unhealth by far and double pop unhealth, then you notice huge unhealth slows city growth to a crawl and add building health bonuses... Instead of balancing you add disruptive component and then increase the amplitude as foolish child trying not to fall from a log by wavering his hands more... The favourite Valk answer to many mine propositions is "why should i bother with making a new system when old works just fine?" Thats what you did here: you ruined an old fine-working system by unnecessary addition.

Healers gtfo and stfu. We hate you.

P.S. I urge you to stop stuffing RifE with new additions and devote a few months to sort out the mess you have already made.

P.P.S. Get over childish attachment that prevents you from scrapping your creations without hesitation. As a training i suggest you play D2LoD, find a full Tal Rasha's set and then drop it on the ground and exit game.

I am going to phrase this as politely as possible, though it is more than a post such as this deserves.

If you do not like the mod, or the changes that we make, play a different mod. Our work is free, done in our spare time for absolutely no compensation. We do this because we enjoy it.

You have absolutely no access to our team forum, and thus have no ability to follow the reasoning that led to the health changes; It was not simply to make Healers worthwhile, and if that was the entire reasoning, it would be reversed. Frankly, Healers were added in the first place near-exclusively for those few civs which had trouble accessing healing units (Such as the Kahdi, now removed, and several other agnostic civilizations). There are also plans for Plagues, but they will not be implemented until Health is at a point we are happy with.

My 'favorite answer' to your 'propositions' (if you can call the things that pollute your posts that) is not that the 'old works just fine', it is that your propositions do not work in Civilization 4. Come up with propositions that aren't complete , and I may have a different answer.

Finally, on scrapping creations... Look at the Kahdi. The Machinarum. Numerous other mechanics. We are fully prepared to scrap those mechanics that do not work well... However, we like the health changes. They were meant to slow growth, limit city size in a more gentle manner than a hard cap (or needing more food for pop); They have accomplished that. There are a few rough spots (mostly concerning Healers and Fallow civs), but those have been smoothed out a bit with 1.31 and work will continue to balance it nicely. It is impossible to fully balance a system of that nature in any reasonable time frame without releasing an early version to the players; There simply are not enough of us.

Again, take your suggestions, your complaints, and your posts, and shove them up your ass. Please.

And a great (imHo) idea had occured to me by context: persistent summons!
Meaning that summoner is limited in quantity of certain type entities he may simultaneously bring forth, but these are able to gain experience and when summoned again they retain it!
Would be much more realistic, considering all these elder elementals and ancient warrior spirits.

This may be the first of your ideas I like (within the context of civ4; civ5 is different, but I'd already suggested a certain mechanic for it before your post came up )

It is also, as with the aforementioned, unnamed mechanic, already been planned by the team. For quite some time, in fact, though retaining xp when summoned is not planned (nor will it be implemented; On death, they pass xp to the summoner. Only one or the other, and I prefer the current mechanic).

http://greyfox.me/rife/blog/2010/08/05/magic-revisited/

No. This is not helpful or productive. The funny thing is, if you were less of an =|@, I might partially agree with you.

Please do us all a favor and just die.

Not complaining about the health system here . However while playing, I have noticed lots of messages about AI players getting Healers (gp). Maybe the ai should be changed to not prioritize healers? Or healer gp slots should not be available so early in the game? Actually, that may be better. Not sure how late game they should be though...

Yes, the AI needs to be taught to value them less. ATM, it's still valuing them on a basis of 1pop = 1unhealth, not 2.

If he had made that comment back when the one of mine that *he* quoted was fresh, this would have been absolutely on the ball. Maybe not productive, but feedback doesn't always have to contain explicit instructions on what needs to be change.

As it is, we'll have to see how the new changes play out with us peons out here. I'm not especially fond of seeing even more buildings added to the game just to deal with health balance issues (IMO, city management is becoming dangerously bloated at this point), but I do like the idea of placing a greater importance on strategic city placement, which is where this is all ultimately headed.

At this point the buildings aren't even in yet. However, the main impact will be to make city placement important... Which we think is a good thing.

On second thought, why not reduce unhealth per pop to former 1 but add a LOT of horrible epidemic events? Bang and -25 health... bang and -2 health per turn unless 'cured' mitigated... this way all this 'UGE health shall be needed, but healers shall not crowd GP bar - all happy...

Plagues will operate nothing like that whatsoever.

That sounds...

...completely awful.

I do wish health would be simple again, though. Additional buildings doesn't sound like fun, but if I can just spam them and not worry about my GPP pool or balancing plot selection versus wasting production on mitigation or OH GOD IT'S FLOODPLAINS RUN SAVE THE CHILDREN then I'll be happy. So I'm waiting patiently for the new system details, and hoping it's something like "Mushroom Cave Farm - Mushrooms in range? +3 Health for 100 hammers!" that is minimally intrusive on gameplay.

I think city placement is already pretty strategic, except for the hardcore terraforming crew, who generally have their own issues ("Slaves! Slaves! My 8-population kingdom for a few more ing Slaves!") to deal with. And are getting changed, I know, before somebody says it, but I doubt it'll really affect this. Just have to fort mana more aggressively.

Something like that building is the intent, I believe. No idea, though; Again, not in yet. May not even be added.

Indeed it does! The very point is that it is grotesquely more awful than... Opera?.. designs and thus more fun!

I'm just going to let Opera respond to this one... She's not as nice as I am.

 

[Opera]

FFFUUU----
*screams*
FFFUUU----

I lost my glasses

 

[Grey Fox]

Hey Rainbow Sand, can you stop posting while you are wasted? Or maybe this is your normal state of mind? Then I suggest you seek help.

I suggested adding a EULA agreement that all players have to agree to before playing our mod. It would have a short segment: "You hereby acknowledge that your handle at Civilization Fanatics' Center's Forum (CFC) is NOT Rainbow Sand. If your handle is Rainbow Sand you are NOT allowed to continue. By continue we mean the act of playing the modification of Sid Meier's Civilization 4: Beyond the Sword referenced by the name of Rise from Erebus (RifE). So to summarize, if your handle/nickname/whatever at CFC is 'Rainbow Sand' you are not allowed to play RifE."

That's my suggestion. I don't really want to enforce this on all players just because of you though.

So can you, like you wanted our Healers to do, gtfo and stfu. We hate you.

 

[Calavente]

I luv' you all
Great reactions on Raindows' acid comments
I especially like Grey Fox's one (do we say "Grey Fox' one" or "Grey Fox's" ?)

Edit : As a side note on a balance subject :
I noticed that my capital could convert "100% of into "
for gold in capital or for other cities it was only 50% of
My only explanation would be that in my capital there was an academy (created by GS).
If that is the real explanation... I really like this designe !!
If it is not the real cause, I still like this, but could you tell me the real reason ? (I had also God-King but that should not have any effect, and CoE holy city in capital but no shrine)

 

[Opera]

If you check the tech tree, you'll see that Writing unlocks two processes: Research and Research (Academy). I think the second is 100% production converted while the first is only 50%. I think there's others like that in the tech tree for gold and culture.

 

[Valkrionn]

It is exactly what Opera said, yes.

 

[Tschuggi]

Moin,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Sand
And a great (imHo) idea had occured to me by context: persistent summons!
Meaning that summoner is limited in quantity of certain type entities he may simultaneously bring forth, but these are able to gain experience and when summoned again they retain it!
Would be much more realistic, considering all these elder elementals and ancient warrior spirits.

Originally Posted by Valkrionn
This may be the first of your ideas I like (within the context of civ4; civ5 is different, but I'd already suggested a certain mechanic for it before your post came up )

Yesterday I played a game with sheaim on Wildmana (stability...) and they have a mechanic that does a similar thing with demons via the portal and then the upgrade of the portal via a national wonder, also a portal (forgot the name). It makes demons not controlable and attacking and they are resurrected with all promos in the capital to continue rampaging. Great fun. Had a Sukkubus killing tons of dragons (!)... Kept my area free of animals and barbs Elementals would react a bit different, of course, but I liked the solution via the buildings. Nice idea.

Greez,

Tschuggi


P.S.: RainbowSand... you show a very poor state of mind. Critizising is ok. Sometimes even complaining (I know...). But you cross a line. You are simply a person who lacks respect.

 

[Valkrionn]

Moin,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Sand
And a great (imHo) idea had occured to me by context: persistent summons!
Meaning that summoner is limited in quantity of certain type entities he may simultaneously bring forth, but these are able to gain experience and when summoned again they retain it!
Would be much more realistic, considering all these elder elementals and ancient warrior spirits.

Originally Posted by Valkrionn
This may be the first of your ideas I like (within the context of civ4; civ5 is different, but I'd already suggested a certain mechanic for it before your post came up )

Yesterday I played a game with sheaim on Wildmana (stability...) and they have a mechanic that does a similar thing with demons via the portal and then the upgrade of the portal via a national wonder, also a portal (forgot the name). It makes demons not controlable and attacking and they are resurrected with all promos in the capital to continue rampaging. Great fun. Had a Sukkubus killing tons of dragons (!)... Kept my area free of animals and barbs Elementals would react a bit different, of course, but I liked the solution via the buildings. Nice idea.

Greez,

Tschuggi


P.S.: RainbowSand... you show a very poor state of mind. Critizising is ok. Sometimes even complaining (I know...). But you cross a line. You are simply a person who lacks respect.

Eh. I'm not a fan of that. Believe you are talking about Tesb's Sheaim changes, where the demons spawned by the Gate are AI controlled. If I'm getting units spawned, I want to control them. Just not a fan of being unable to control units from such a core mechanic.

 

[Tschuggi]

Hi Valk,

yes, exactly this one. And you are right, it's better and more fun to conrtrol the units by your own, but I think tesb/Sephi had to make something up to balance the resurrection-thing... but the idea via the building is not bad, but I don't know if you can use it for the elder elementals.

Greez,

Tschuggi

 

[Requia]

The Magic Resistance trait of Maer is a bit redundant given that the Mechanos can already get free magic resistance from a early game UB.

 

[Venir]

A mammoth attacked and killed my Mithril Golem.

The elephant units don't seem to be able to attack until they receive that mysterious +60% strength that doesn't seem to have a promo. Then they start owning all the AI units and soon have +160% strength.

 

[Swinkscalibur]

I think its an autoaquire hidden promotions given with age.