Brave new World's New Civilizations - REVISED AGAIN!

[cybrxkhan]

I do not really want the Swahili, because they make such good city-states.

That is my one gripe about the Swahili (even though many if not most of the City-states in the game aren't really proper CS), but I'd rather have a full-blown Swahili civ. At the least I'd like to see more Swahili CS in the future. There were a lot of them.

 

[seancolorado]

That is my one gripe about the Swahili (even though many if not most of the City-states in the game aren't really proper CS), but I'd rather have a full-blown Swahili civ. At the least I'd like to see more Swahili CS in the future. There were a lot of them.

What a coincidence, I was just mentioning Swahili in the Ideas section

I don't know much about them though - do they have specific kingdom names we can go by? Or are they just 'the Swahili' in general?

 

[cybrxkhan]

I don't know much about them though - do they have specific kingdom names we can go by? Or are they just 'the Swahili' in general?

A Swahili blob civ would probably be as bad as Greece and maybe the Mayans in terms of blobness. While each CS obviously had its uniqueness, they were essentially city-states and small kingdoms that shared cultural, linguistic, economical, political, etc. features. There were a few kingdoms that ruled over Swahili CS, most famously the Kingdom of Zanzibar, but to my knowledge they were of Omani origin, so it was basically an Omani royal family deciding to play colonizer with the Swahili, but they ended up losing Oman and staying in Swahili. Dunno how accurate that is, my knowledge is a bit hazy.

 

[Nujabes]

A Swahili blob civ would probably be as bad as Greece and maybe the Mayans in terms of blobness. While each CS obviously had its uniqueness, they were essentially city-states and small kingdoms that shared cultural, linguistic, economical, political, etc. features. There were a few kingdoms that ruled over Swahili CS, most famously the Kingdom of Zanzibar, but to my knowledge they were of Omani origin, so it was basically an Omani royal family deciding to play colonizer with the Swahili, but they ended up losing Oman and staying in Swahili. Dunno how accurate that is, my knowledge is a bit hazy.

Swahili would be a pretty bad amalgamation civ, and I think the name comes up a lot because it's so recognizable. There are worse choices, but there are so many better ones. I also hope they don't make Nzinga of Ndongo the leader if they end up choosing Kongo, the current runaway favorite. Kongo, Ashanti, and Nubia would help shore up Africa nicely, both geographically and temporally.

 

[teriaky]

A Swahili blob civ would probably be as bad as Greece and maybe the Mayans in terms of blobness. While each CS obviously had its uniqueness, they were essentially city-states and small kingdoms that shared cultural, linguistic, economical, political, etc. features. There were a few kingdoms that ruled over Swahili CS, most famously the Kingdom of Zanzibar, but to my knowledge they were of Omani origin, so it was basically an Omani royal family deciding to play colonizer with the Swahili, but they ended up losing Oman and staying in Swahili. Dunno how accurate that is, my knowledge is a bit hazy.

After getting it's independence from Portugal, Oman decided to take all of the Muslim Portuguese colonies in the Indian Ocean. They ended up taking the eastern coast of Africa. At first, they were ruled by Oman, but in 1837, the sultan decided to move it's capital to Zanzibar because it was extremly rich. Eventually, another sultan decided to divide it's empire between his 2 sons because they were both good guys. One got Oman, the other got the African coast (with Zanzibar as a capital).

 

[turingmachine]

You can choose either the Kilwa Sultanate, Oman Empire, or the Zanzibar Sultanate, all of which ruled over the majority of the Swahili city-states during their time, so it wouldn't really be a blob.

 

[codepoet]

A Swahili blob civ would probably be as bad as Greece and maybe the Mayans in terms of blobness. While each CS obviously had its uniqueness, they were essentially city-states and small kingdoms that shared cultural, linguistic, economical, political, etc. features. There were a few kingdoms that ruled over Swahili CS, most famously the Kingdom of Zanzibar, but to my knowledge they were of Omani origin, so it was basically an Omani royal family deciding to play colonizer with the Swahili, but they ended up losing Oman and staying in Swahili. Dunno how accurate that is, my knowledge is a bit hazy.

Greece is not a bad blob. It's perfectly suited. They're honoring the city-state aspect while representing Alexander's (rather his father, Philip's) unification of Greece.
If you go down this route, you could claim the same for numerous other Civs. They all were a collection of city-states that are culturally linked. Aztecs, Babylon, Sumer, Assyria... where would you draw the line? I think Greece is a good one because of the extent of the unified empire under Alexander (and it certainly was an empire, organizationally).

 

[cybrxkhan]

Greece is not a bad blob. It's perfectly suited. They're honoring the city-state aspect while representing Alexander's (rather his father, Philip's) unification of Greece.
If you go down this route, you could claim the same for numerous other Civs. They all were a collection of city-states that are culturally linked. Aztecs, Babylon, Sumer, Assyria... where would you draw the line? I think Greece is a good one because of the extent of the unified empire under Alexander (and it certainly was an empire, organizationally).

I never said Greece was a bad blob, I said that a Swahili blob would be "as bad as", which doesn't say anything about whether Greece is a bad blob. Maybe it would've been clearer if I said "similar to".

 

[codepoet]

I never said Greece was a bad blob, I said that a Swahili blob would be "as bad as", which doesn't say anything about whether Greece is a bad blob. Maybe it would've been clearer if I said "similar to".

A Swahili blob civ would probably be as bad as Greece and maybe the Mayans in terms of blobness.

Ok, yes... "as bad as" implies "it's a bad blob". You're making a comparison of the negativity of two things. Ah well. That's interesting then - I know little about Swahili culture, but if it's similar to Greece in structure I'll add it to some of my history reading (because I find history of Greece to be the most compelling history usually). I'm really into Mongolia at the moment though (need to finish that first).

 

[phaethon16]

Nzinga as the ruler of the Kongo wouldn't be so terrible. If you want to get technical and call it Ngola, whatever, put that in instead of Kongo. The point is either of the two should be in, and Nzinga would be a fantastic leader choice for a civ.

 

[Nujabes]

I don't think it's that technical. They are two distinct, historically opposed states, and Ngongo and Kongo are not interchangeable.

 

[phaethon16]

You misunderstand, I'm saying that either civ works for me because they both ultimately represent the same thing to me. Personally, I'd rather have whatever civ is best suited to Nzinga because not only is she cool, but her kingdom's ancestors and its descendants were impressive. So, I would dupport Ngola as much as I support Kongo because they both work for me.

 

[Nujabes]

You misunderstand, I'm saying that either civ works for me because they both ultimately represent the same thing to me. Personally, I'd rather have whatever civ is best suited to Nzinga because not only is she cool, but her kingdom's ancestors and its descendants were impressive. So, I would dupport Ngola as much as I support Kongo because they both work for me.

I think Kongo is the only viable option out of those states given fan demand and the appearance of Mbanza-Kongo in BNW as an acknowledgment of its popularity - I've never seen anyone request Ndongo or Matamba - and so if they pick Kongo I hope they don't choose Nzinga as the leader since it doesn't make sense.

 

[phaethon16]

I think Kongo is the only viable option out of those states given fan demand and the appearance of Mbanza-Kongo in BNW as an acknowledgment of its popularity - I've never seen anyone request Ndongo or Matamba - and so if they pick Kongo I hope they don't choose Nzinga as the leader since it doesn't make sense.

Yeah, you're right. Still, it would make me sad to see someone like Alfonso II make it as a leader and not Nzinga.

 

[spacedinosaur]

A Swahili blob civ would probably be as bad as Greece and maybe the Mayans in terms of blobness. While each CS obviously had its uniqueness, they were essentially city-states and small kingdoms that shared cultural, linguistic, economical, political, etc. features. There were a few kingdoms that ruled over Swahili CS, most famously the Kingdom of Zanzibar, but to my knowledge they were of Omani origin, so it was basically an Omani royal family deciding to play colonizer with the Swahili, but they ended up losing Oman and staying in Swahili. Dunno how accurate that is, my knowledge is a bit hazy.

A Swahili blob would be akin to the Celtic blob that everyone complains about. An utter mess. An Omani Empire would be much more warranted for an East African Empire.

 

[phaethon16]

You know what, I changed my mind. It wouldn't be ideal to have Nzinga represent the Kongo, but it's not as if Ndongo and Kongo are that disimiliar, and she still fought for the Kongo as much as her own homeland. Nzinga spent her whole life forming coalitions and fighting the Portuguese, wherever they were. She represented her region, not her country. While Ndongo and Kongo may have fought in the past, she was not Ndongo. It would be incorrect to have her lead Kongo, but she truly is the champion of the region, so I would not mind a blob-type civ that combines Kongo, Ndongo, and Matamba as one civ. People might find it weird or wrong, but I think that no one else in the region represents the Kongo's struggle as much as her. On another note, could people elaborate more on the Omani/Swahili Empire?

 

[cybrxkhan]

A Swahili blob would be akin to the Celtic blob that everyone complains about. An utter mess. An Omani Empire would be much more warranted for an East African Empire.

Eh, I'd say a fairer comparison would be with the Mayans, given that they were city states that shared close cultural, economic, etc. ties as opposed to the Celtic blob that's a hideous amalgamation of several different cultures and time periods (imagine a "Middle East" civ). Even comparing to the Mayans though, the Swahili were even "more" united than the Mayans because 1) linguistically they generally spoke the same languages, even as a lingua franca (Swahili, Arabic, Persian, etc.) while the Mayans are divided into many languages and language sub-groups; 2) large chunks of the Swahili coast were actually united for periods of time, unlike the Mayans (I think - many Mayan city-states were united but under the Toltecs if I remember correctly; my knowledge is a bit hazy, though, Gucumatz can correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[Gucumatz]

Some Maya city states created alliances with one another. Others created 'mini'-empires. A lot of the Maya world was united under Toltec rule or a while too. There were some mini-empires where a city state would control maybe another 2-3 cities, but certainly never a true empire of their own (These other cities would sometimes be colonies, cities where another had committed a coup basically and replaced the nobles, etc.)

I don't know that much about the Swahili coast, but if there were even temporal alliances/small 'kingdoms' that allied each other, yes it would be comparable

 

[bcaiko]

I mean, let's be serious. Whichever civs are chosen, there is only one truth: we will all play every one of them.

I probably won't play most of them. Especially the European ones, in which I have absolutely no interest.

In Gods and Kings, the only new Civ that tickled my fancy was The Maya. Though I was happy to see Dido and Hallie Salassie show up in my games on occassion.

So far in BNW, I will give a try to playing The Zulu (I think they're interesting historically), and maybe Indonesia just to figure out what the heck to do with them. I'll be happy to run into mopey Pedro, forcing his people to party to victory.

 

[spacedinosaur]

The big problem I have with a Swahili civ is the fact that there was never a "Swahili nation" so to speak. The closest thing to that would be Tanzania when Tanganyika and Zanzibar united. Prior to this, while they had a great culture and similar Bantu origins, the Sofala and Zenj Kingdoms were the most prominent Swahili states of East Africa, however their West African Bantu counterparts, the Kongo and Khoikhoi were much more sophisticated.