Buffing the "weaker" Civs, opinions wanted

[White Out]

So I'm in the process of doing a pretty simple mod that buffs civs that are weak, and trying to get them a leg up. Mostly this done thru a lens with single player in mind, with difficulty being king to immortal. So nothing prince or earlier or deity.

I 1st wanted to identify Civs with no unique building, and had weak UA's. I came up with America and Mongolia. Mongolia does have a great UU, but the civ in general, with the ai in charge, stinks. America needs no explanation: minutemen are cool but their UA is virtually useless. and B52's? Yahoo.

Next I wanted to determine who, in my opinion had a weak UA (not terrible) and no UB. Venice and Carthage were my decisions here. Venice as far as the AI goes might as well be a speed bump. They're just plain terrible. One poster said it best in the other thread... often in games you'll be like "oh hey venice was in the game". Carthage can sometimes be a good AI but that really depends on starts and who they're around. I don't want to use anecdotal evidence: what I can say for sure is there's no UB here, the UU's are decent but nothing amazing, and the UA is really quite lame. Free harbours. Wahoo. Carthage needs help. Finally, we have the Danish. The Danes UA isn't totally useless, and can be really helpful at times. With certain mods that improve AI it actually can be pretty decent. But it's really lacking otherwise, especially on Pangea or Continents. Their UU's are... ok, kinda cool? I dunno. Improvements can be made here for sure.

Next I wanted to focus on civs who had bad UA's and bad UB's. The Iroquois scream this. Bad UA, not atrocious I guess, but overall not great. And the longhouse is actually pretty crappy. Germany also fell into this category for me. Their UA is ... at best... mediocre. If Barbs are off, it's insane how bad it is. Cheaper units is nice but they need help. I like the Hanse, but it's available a little late in my opinion.

My final category I took the Celts and Netherlands. The Netherlands UA is atrocious for the computer because it simply doesn't use it. The Celt UA is very cool at 1st but becomes painfully irrelevant later. The Polder can be freaking amazing if you can build it, while the Celt UB is pretty amazeballs in my opinion... so a little bit of a dance here.

So now come the changes. I'd love to hear some input from the community on this. I'll outline what I plan on doing, and what I will be doing. Please give me feedback on all. I'm open to change.

updated June 20th

America cheaper border purchases are gone. 25% faster great person generation. Free Great Engineer here @ physics

Mongolia Mongolians have been given a significant culture bonus for killing units. 125% 25% more than what aztecs got. the aztecs have had their ua changed

Aztecs I didn't think they needed buffing, but with Mongolia taking their ability i wanted to create diversity. they've now been given 150% faith per kill instead of 100% culture. Culture has been added back but only 25% per kill, as opposed to 100%.

Venice Venice has been given a brand new promotion someone helped me make on civfanatics. 50% bonus when they fight within 3 tiles of the capital. this should help them survive onslaughts from aggressive neighbors, and prevent their units from being offensive minded where i didnt want them.

Carthage Carthage still gets free harbours, and now 50% reduced naval units cost. Wanted a free great admiral but that can cause issues; if the capital isn't on an ocean (rare but can happen) you can find a stranded GA in the capital just sitting there. So leaving it at the original bonus +cheap navy.

Denmark Tested and already done in a mod. No more ski infantry, instead Stave Church from Barathor. Berserkers now have foreign lands bonus, vs wounded bonus, and lose the defense modified for terrain. They should be a handful now.

Germany Hanse is the same as it is but now available at Guilds. Barbarian bonus is gone, and they now have 50% lower unit maintenance.

Iroquois Simple mod from Krajzen's; the longhouse is now +5 production and then all the extra production from trees. Makes this UB really shine. The AI seems to shine with this civ and now with a less useless UB that's all I felt needed to be done here.

Celts Free great general at Iron Working. This was the civ that needed the least boosting, and I hope this does the trick. They have a nice UB and their UA gives them a religion.. well see how the AI handles this.

Netherlands the luxury bonus is gone. free great merchant at optics. social policies reduced by 15%. Seems to be not quite as powerful as Polands solidarity. Fine by me.

Byzantium free great prophet given when philosophy is researched.

Japan I incorporated Homusubi's Japanese enhanced, with a minor change. The Dojo still gives +15% XP to Navy. Japan was a naval powerhouse in the 20th century and it seemed wrong to just totally take away from that. The Samurai is always much more powerful, with a strength of 23. Dojo also gives +2 culture.

 

[Navelgazer]

Ookay.

FRANCE: For one thing, I really wouldn't call Carthage "weak," but that's just me and I'm biased towards them for whatever reason. Still, that social policy cost bonus should go to the current France, if anyone.

CARTHAGE: I think, if you want to buff Carthage, add a free cargo ship to the free harbor in each city, and maybe get rid of the silly mountain thing if you want to. Keep the units the same. Basically, make the civ play like it was largely designed - for massive coastal REX, with attendant trading.

GERMANY: Another one I don't find weak, myself (quite strong, actually.) But opinions may vary and this is a good buff if one is needed.

 

[Tyrvos]

Ookay.

CARTHAGE: I think, if you want to buff Carthage, add a free cargo ship to the free harbor in each city, and maybe get rid of the silly mountain thing if you want to. Keep the units the same. Basically, make the civ play like it was largely designed - for massive coastal REX, with attendant trading.

"Silly Mountain thing"

Excuse me, you can build roads on mountains with them. That's like, the best UA ever.

 

[SULOMON]

America is fine. The American UUs are very good (thought the B17 comes late) and the UA is good for very important early game scouting and the 50% tile purchase gets access to 3 food tiles a lot quicker in the beginning.
Edit: I took out the part about Mongolia. Didn't read the OP's post well at first.

 

[Callonia]

If Firaxis came back to civ 5 and gave AI the overhaul it needs then alot of weak civs will do better solely on the basis of better AI. But they aren't.

And i've been noticing on several posts that firaxis refused to release full tools which would let the modders to work at the AI.

 

[White Out]

Ookay.

FRANCE: For one thing, I really wouldn't call Carthage "weak," but that's just me and I'm biased towards them for whatever reason. Still, that social policy cost bonus should go to the current France, if anyone.

CARTHAGE: I think, if you want to buff Carthage, add a free cargo ship to the free harbor in each city, and maybe get rid of the silly mountain thing if you want to. Keep the units the same. Basically, make the civ play like it was largely designed - for massive coastal REX, with attendant trading.

GERMANY: Another one I don't find weak, myself (quite strong, actually.) But opinions may vary and this is a good buff if one is needed.

re: france. France has a ua that actually has a very tangible bonus, and they have a unique building that plays into it as well. buffing them is a little too much; im dealing with the worst of the worst.

re: carthage. i think the way i would go here is with cheaper navy and to play off their naval theme. i agree.

germany: i disagree that germany is strong. the ua itself is very limited, and if u play like me with no barbarians its almost non existant. in the hands of the ai germany has almost no real benefits going for it, except the hanse. the panzer is too late arriving. so the hanse, being a nice upgrade, i made available a little earlier. a minor change that i think should help a lot.

"Silly Mountain thing"

Excuse me, you can build roads on mountains with them. That's like, the best UA ever.

lol

America is fine. The American UUs are very good (thought the B17 comes late) and the UA is good for very important early game scouting and the 50% tile purchase gets access to 3 food tiles a lot quicker in the beginning.
Edit: I took out the part about Mongolia. Didn't read the OP's post well at first.

im going to have to go ahead and disagree here. the b52 is great but waay to late to matter. the minutemen are.. ya, great. no doubt. the thing is that early game scouting means nothing, and in the hands of the ai, worthless. just like the 50% tile reduction. its a horrible ua and i have yet see a game where america does well without having an amazing start

If Firaxis came back to civ 5 and gave AI the overhaul it needs then alot of weak civs will do better solely on the basis of better AI. But they aren't.

And i've been noticing on several posts that firaxis refused to release full tools which would let the modders to work at the AI.

keep in mind guys, and thanks for bringing this up callonia... this mod is based on how the ai plays civs. as humans we can adapt to almost any civ and make even the crappiest ones decent.

 

[Callonia]

Yup, Biggest shame of Firaxis is the fact that they didn't bother to tell the Hunnic AI that battering ram isn't a spearmen. Consequently they use it as a spearmen instead of a battering ram. If firaxis programmed hunnic correctly then there would be alot more hunnic hordes of fury overrunning everything in classic era and it would make hunnic alot more interesting and scary to fight against XD

 

[SULOMON]

re: france. France has a ua that actually has a very tangible bonus, and they have a unique building that plays into it as well. buffing them is a little too much; im dealing with the worst of the worst.

re: carthage. i think the way i would go here is with cheaper navy and to play off their naval theme. i agree.

germany: i disagree that germany is strong. the ua itself is very limited, and if u play like me with no barbarians its almost non existant. in the hands of the ai germany has almost no real benefits going for it, except the hanse. the panzer is too late arriving. so the hanse, being a nice upgrade, i made available a little earlier. a minor change that i think should help a lot.



lol



im going to have to go ahead and disagree here. the b52 is great but waay to late to matter. the minutemen are.. ya, great. no doubt. the thing is that early game scouting means nothing, and in the hands of the ai, worthless. just like the 50% tile reduction. its a horrible ua and i have yet see a game where america does well without having an amazing start




keep in mind guys, and thanks for bringing this up callonia... this mod is based on how the ai plays civs. as humans we can adapt to almost any civ and make even the crappiest ones decent.

Early game scouting is very important! The early moves decide the game. America gets more ruins from seeing them first and meet city states first (more gold which synchronizes nicely with the tile purchase) and civs first. The tile purchase isn't the greatest but it allows people to have the important tiles (like 3 food tiles) more early and later gobble up surrounding land when later cities are settled. I can agree that AI America doesn't always do that good.

 

[NoirSuede]

Ookay.

FRANCE: For one thing, I really wouldn't call Carthage "weak," but that's just me and I'm biased towards them for whatever reason. Still, that social policy cost bonus should go to the current France, if anyone.

CARTHAGE: I think, if you want to buff Carthage, add a free cargo ship to the free harbor in each city, and maybe get rid of the silly mountain thing if you want to. Keep the units the same. Basically, make the civ play like it was largely designed - for massive coastal REX, with attendant trading.

GERMANY: Another one I don't find weak, myself (quite strong, actually.) But opinions may vary and this is a good buff if one is needed.

For Carthage, maybe let them cross mountains from turn 0 without taking any damage.

For Germany they should just get rid of the Panzer and replace it with the new Landsknecht as Germany's UU (while changing Mercenary Army's effects to something else, like 30% reduction in purchasing combat units). And also make them able to convert any land barb unit ala Ottoman's UA.

And for Denmark, in addition to the changes everyone else have said, change their UA to allow all their units (military/civilian) to embark/disembark with 0 movement points.

 

[Callonia]

For Carthage, maybe let them cross mountains from turn 0 without taking any damage.

For Germany they should just get rid of the Panzer and replace it with the new Landsknecht as Germany's UU (while changing Mercenary Army's effects to something else, like 30% reduction in purchasing combat units). And also make them able to convert any land barb unit ala Ottoman's UA.

And for Denmark, in addition to the changes everyone else have said, change their UA to allow all their units (military/civilian) to embark/disembark with 0 movement points.

Nooo I would hate it if panzers got removed they tend to become very large parts of my armies as I conquer the world fast. And against super strong foes, Panzers become even more good when you pick up promotions. In fact, Panzers used to be even more deadly in vanilla civ5 but they got nerfed so hard.

I kinda miss killing eight enemy units with one panzer with the way blitz promo used to work for land units.

 

[NoirSuede]

Nooo I would hate it if panzers got removed they tend to become very large parts of my armies as I conquer the world fast. And against super strong foes, Panzers become even more good when you pick up promotions. In fact, Panzers used to be even more deadly in vanilla civ5 but they got nerfed so hard.

I kinda miss killing eight enemy units with one panzer with the way blitz promo used to work for land units.

How does the blitz promo used to work in vanilla ?

 

[Crafty Bison]

Netherlands, Carthage and Venice out, India, Japan and Ottomans in.

Japanese zero is replaced by dojo UU, which replaces the armoury - melee units built with a dojo the Aztec UA.
India, Imo needs a complete do-over, so I won't put my suggestions here.
Ottomans - UA also gets gold for naval conversion (mechanic works like the honour finisher)

 

[SULOMON]

Netherlands, Carthage and Venice out, India, Japan and Ottomans in.

Japanese zero is replaced by dojo UU, which replaces the armoury - melee units built with a dojo the Aztec UA.
India, Imo needs a complete do-over, so I won't put my suggestions here.
Ottomans - UA also gets gold for naval conversion (mechanic works like the honour finisher)

What's wrong with India so much that they need a complete do-over.

 

[White Out]

I think India is fine. Again, I don't want to go crazy here. There really is a lot to like about them, they have a decent UA and nice unique building that plays into it. Japan is a little on the ... not so awesome side. I might have to add a combat bonus to them. They don't have a unique building so I could see myself adding a little something there. Maybe more great generals.

 

[Navelgazer]

re: france. France has a ua that actually has a very tangible bonus, and they have a unique building that plays into it as well. buffing them is a little too much; im dealing with the worst of the worst.

France has a decent bonus towards one specific victory condition, and one which takes a lot of work - possibly more work - than any other UA to make it worthwhile. They were, in my humble opinion, the most hurt by BNW (perhaps the only civ hurt by BNW?) Their old UA, plus their new one, might make for a decent total under the power-creep the expansions have given us (which I'm not opposed to, I just think that, like Japan, Germany and for-god's-skae Arabia, France could use a real nudge towards viability again.

germany: i disagree that germany is strong. the ua itself is very limited, and if u play like me with no barbarians its almost non existant. in the hands of the ai germany has almost no real benefits going for it, except the hanse. the panzer is too late arriving. so the hanse, being a nice upgrade, i made available a little earlier. a minor change that i think should help a lot.

Didn't catch that you were playing without Barbarians. That obviously makes a big difference with Germany. I'd try to keep their flavor the same, but make it a (much) smaller percentage chance of winning over defeated land units in general, then.

Japan just needs a start bias that guarantees ocean resources nearby instead of just coast.

Byzantium should either earn faith with the Dromon or else just get the Piety opener for free, methinks.

 

[White Out]

I forgot to add that I gave +3 faith to Byzantium from their palace. updated

 

[Crafty Bison]

What's wrong with India so much that they need a complete do-over.

They are weak enough only for a minor change, befitting of this thread.

However, the reason I'd like to do a do-over is their style, which not only breaks the rules of the game, but would have been completely different if they'd not been a vanilla civ. I'd also like to see multiple civs from the subcontinent.

This isn't a comment for this thread, so I didn't initially expand on it until the esteemed members of the community saw fit to question it.

However, their relevance for a change which is of a similar magnitude to the others in the thread is, imo, justified. The UB is one of the weakest in the game, the UU is on a poor upgrade path, and the UA hurts early game and provides benefits which are not as important as they used to be when the civ was created.

 

[Dave Hartwick]

Seems like an easy buff would be to grant starting technologies. Starting with, say, pottery, is significant without being overpowering.

 

[LoneRebel]

Don't agree with production bonus for buildings that already exist in the capital for America, as that is already Rome's bonus. And is there any reason America should get faith and culture from kills? I prefer something different.

Same with Venice, combat bonus in own lands already belongs to the Shoshone, and doesn't seem very fitting for Venice IMO.

 

[Redaxe]

I don't mind France's UA - yes culture victories are hard but France does have an edge on a VC that is regarded as very hard to reach on higher difficulties (so its hardly worthless)

As for America I think if you want to try something different perhaps give every merchant specialist a 1 gold and 1 production and 1 science bonus. Merchant specialists also provide 2 scientist & 2 engineer points. That make merchant specialists quite valuable as they will add points towards Great merchants, engineers & s scientists. This UA represents America's capitalist & entrepreneurial culture that created the world's largest middle class.