Calling All Critics

[Ultimocrat]

Fish the clams immediately, start working them, and switch build to a worker -- didn't know you were so close to having BW in hand. You can chop out a second/third work boat, and grow to 4-5 while chop/building warriors or dog soldiers. Then chop/build a second worker and chop/build a settler. Not sure the stone site is actually your best bet for a second city -- I'd be tempted to settle the fish/wheat site to the east as #2.

EDIT: switch to slavery as soon as you tech BW, and whip out the last of the worker. You may also want to whip out part of the settler.

 

[thbrown81]

I did adjust my tiles once the WB finish the nets. I'm now working that tile plus the 0/3/0 tile. This gives me growth in 10 turns, BW one turn earlier while only giving up one turn on the 2nd boat. At this point I'll stick with the boat/ warrior/ worker plan.

3160 B.C. BW finishes and I begin rounding up rounding up everyone with the last name of Jackson or Chivington to fill out my impressed labor force. My warrior has discovered bronze in the southwest corner of the map. Keeping ZY away from it will be critical if he doesn't have his own yet.

3080 BC I whip out a Dog Solider since it will take me two turns to get the pop point back but seven to finish the DS normally. (This is why I should have been using slavery, isn't it?) I idle on a 2nd DS for a turn, then switch to the worker when the city grows again.



How did I never notice that food doubles for hammers building a worker? Those two upgraded clam tiles are looking awfully nice now!

 

[capnvonbaron]

That stone sight isn't bad, although I'd probably do the fish/wheat city first since Cahokia can pump out settlers pretty fast. Definitely put the stone city on that hill... it'll help with defence. I don't think you're going to have to worry about barbs too much, but the hill will just make it so you don't have to worry about losing it to bad luck. Snagging the stone will be nice for SH, and I'd probably run for GLH too since you definitely have a lot of water around. Don't even think about building the GW. Dog Soldiers eat barbs for lunch. Also if Zara is close, his "MGCW" will knock out a lot of barb country, so he may not be such a bad neighbor to have after all.

I'd probably farm the floodplains and go whip-crazy early (def whip/chop SH), turn it into a specialist/GP farm later. Its pretty weak for production/gold otherwise, what with only one food bonus and 3 desert/3 peaks in the BFC. Pray you don't get any volcano REs

EDIT: I'd use all that tasty food and forest around Cahokia to whip/chop the GLH. Make sure to snag sailing as soon as you get a settler/worker out to that stone... the dumb AI seems to love the GLH (ToA too... really they love all the commerce wonders, don't they?). I rarely build it in my games just because the AIs always get it before I even have a coastal city up and running

 

[thbrown81]

2840 B.C. Huge game changing event (OK, maybe not really, but still very helpful), as my craftsmen develop better axe handles. My DS now all get shock, which means +125% against melee. This almost makes it better if ZY finds copper, because he’ll build axes instead of archers!

2800 BC Whip my first worker. Why was I not using slavery again?

2760 BC Mysticism is finished and I go ahead and switch to Stonehenge. I can chop it fairly quickly and this will give me time to build my pop and happiness back up, then get a Settler out.

It's now 2640 BC, and I'm at a crossroads on the tech tree. This is the point where I tend to get off track. I've researched immediately critical techs, and now have a number of directions to go.



Since the GL will be very helpful, I choose to beeline for Literacy. Hopefully I can fill in some tech gaps trading with ZY (all the while storing up Dogs to crush him). However, I'm now thinking that beginning SH now might not have been an optimal choice. Cahokia is primed to churn out GSs, but the GPP from SH will dillute the pool a little. Perhaps getting a Settler done and then starting SH in the 2nd city might have been a better choice. Is this one of those minor errors that isn't a big deal on Noble but cripples you on Imm/ Dei?

A look at the big picture of the map.



Still no sign of ZY?? I just popped another gold hut in the northeast corner. It's looking like I'm on an island with just ZY. I'm uncertain that there are six good city sites here, so getting off the island will be a priority. Benjamin Linas is immediately thrown into the chain gang.

 

[Jedi_Otis]

You don't need the stone to build Stonehenge. With all those forests, you could start on it after a Settler and be close to finished by the time the settler gets there. Plus you'll waist all those worker turns to build a road and hook it up. Turns you could just chop with. Not to mention waisting beakers on masonry when you can easily pick that up later in trade.

 

[capnvonbaron]

ha.. well, as you probably played this before I got that last post up... I guess we can throw that all away huh?

Oh well. I'd still vote for you to get a settler out to that stone if just for the GLH. I believe you will be able to get stone to Cahokia via coastline if you can get someone out there to de-fog that last dark water tile -- so you won't need a long road.

 

[Ultimocrat]

I'd still vote for you to get a settler out to that stone if just for the GLH.

Stone doesn't boost GLH production.

You probably want city #2 before you build stonehenge. This can be done by chopping a second worker, chopping a settler, then starting on 'henge. Though you should probably be at least at pop 2 while doing some of this, since you took the time to build 2 work boats. I'd switch off Stonehenge and onto worker-settler after you hit pop 2.

 

[Single Malt]

Stone doesn't boost GLH production.

You probably want city #2 before you build stonehenge. This can be done by chopping a second worker, chopping a settler, then starting on 'henge. Though you should probably be at least at pop 2 while doing some of this, since you took the time to build 2 work boats. I'd switch off Stonehenge and onto worker-settler after you hit pop 2.

Stone henge should be gone if he does that, it usually goes 2000BCish

 

[Ultimocrat]

Stone henge should be gone if he does that, it usually goes 2000BCish

on Noble, really?

 

[thbrown81]

OK, it is now 1760 BC. I just finished my first settler after whipping SH in 1880 BC.

Backing up further, ZY switched to slavery in 2400, which I assume is when he finished BW. As best I can tell, he doesn't have access to a bronze tile.

My Dog fogbusting the east has popped a tech hut that gave me Sailing and a warrior. The warrior is continuing east while the Dog is doubling back towards ZYs territory. It appears that our continent is much larger than I thought at first, so it may well house more Civs than just ZY.

Here's the current big map.



BTW, do these pictures work OK for everyone, or are they a big pain? I don't really have the extra time to link photos externally, but I can try if it makes a big difference for most people.

From a military standpoint, I seem set with the Dogs and uber Totem archers, so I don't see any need to research military for awhile (will hopefully trade for the archers). At this point I'm tempted to make a run at the Oracle. With SH already in Cahokia, it wouldn't be the worst idea to make it a Proph factory and make another city pump out the GSs. A shrine economy seems most feasible for $$, so I'm set to beeline Lit, then COL and Phil, followed by a run at Lib. Hopefully I can fill in a few other filler techs (Wheel, Hunt and Pottery) from ZY before I attack him.

As far as my 2nd city, blocking ZY will be the highest priority. Cahokia's borders will protect the wheat when they expand again, so I can probably save that spot for city 3.

City 2 will probably go on the grass tile where the cursor is.



That should keep ZY from the land to the west.

ZY's location:



I'm forging ahead and expecting retroactive advice. I'm OK with hearing what I should have done, it does prove very useful. (Masonry, for example, was a needless tech detour since I won't be settling near the stone any time soon and don't really need it).

 

[thbrown81]

It is now 570 AD.

I've founded two more cities:



I settled Poverty Point first since it seemed the best spot to close off ZY. Looks like this will be a trade city with lots of cottages. This might be the best spot for the GL, but there isn't much wood to chop. There was, of course, a giant mountain in the perfect spot for Mound City, so I elected for the fish over the spice. It means 3 tiles of overlap, but not the end of the world.

I was able to finish the Oracle in 1000 BC and took COL as my free tech, founding Confucianism in Poverty Point. Unfortunately I had just imbedded my first GP in Cahokia a few turns earlier (Meditation was the bulb tech but was only 112 beakers, which didn't seem worth it), so I will have to wait until the next GP to build the Kong Maio.

I'm backfilling two techs (Wheel and Pottery so my workers have something to do) and will then run at Phil and Lib. My window to attack ZY is closing, though, as he appears to have just built an Axe. He must have found bronze somewhere, so now I'm sending a Dog to find it.

I'm still getting used to the whip. I forgot to whip the Oracle on the last turn and Cahokia popped an angry citizen at size 6. I've been fighting to keep it small ever since. I also put a Barracks in Cahokia so I can churn out some promoted Dogs.

I'm guessing I'll need 8 dogs to make a legit attack on ZY. He currently has three cities, and I'll hope to take two of them and then consider vassaling him.

 

[Maronae3]

With that much of the continent uncovered but still no other AI's to keep ZY in check, it looks like its gonna be up to you. If you don't want to be his lapdog and watch him soar to a later victory after blocking you off all that land, it might be time to give a slap. You may lose a trading partner (by the time you reach feudalism to vassal him, I'm hoping the war will be over..) but it may be your only option in this situation. It's clear by that pic however that he has copper so even with shock DW I wouldn't do too much messing around. As for the fight you'll need I'm sure more than just 8 DW, I'd aim for 12+, more if there's a hill city.. much more in that case. You said you wanna practice the whip, get ready to call in the dogs ( ) emperor wide.

 

[Gral]

Yeap. I agree. There is time for peace and there is time for war. Now it is time for war.

The war is going to happen. You are cut of from the eastern side of the continent and there is a lot of dessert, especialy on your side. The sooner you go to war the cheaper is going to be and you will have enough space to spread yourself.

Sound the trumpets.

 

[Jedi_Otis]

Not so sure I agree with your tech path or choice of wonders. I was never a big fan of the Oracle, but that's just me. You have stone handy. I would have went for the Pyramids and then Great Libray. Early Representation coupled with scientists/GL scientists would generate far more beakers in the long run than one measly free tech from the Oracle.

GLH is a powerful wonder, but it's much better with lots of overseas and foreign trade routes. You prolly wont have overseas til Astronomy, and no foreign once you Dow on Zara.

 

[capnvonbaron]

wacky idea... trade sailing to Zara for something and let him build the GLH. Then pump out a mean pack of dog soldiers and go take it from him

 

[thbrown81]

Maronae3, Gral and Jedi_Otis, you are all correct.

So far in two attempts I have been unable to crack and hold two cities. The first time I went in with 8 dogs, which was far too few. I took Gondar, but only held it for a couple of turns. The next time (I reloaded since this is for educational purposes) I traded for several techs from ZY prior to attacking and went in with 13 Dogs and 3 Cats. I was able to easily capture Gondar and then also took the capital. However, ZY came back with a massive stack of chariots and cats (both of which negated any bonuses my dogs had. I had moved in a couple of D3 archers, but still wasn't enough to hold them off).

The problem was that by the time I attacked, ZY had expanded east and had 10 cities before I hit him at all. The hammers that I put into the Oracle and GL (which I was also able to build in Mound City) should have been used to attack much sooner. In this case losing the GL race was less consequential than losing access to 3/4 of the continent and allowing a rival civ to grow unchecked. Having a 3rd Civ on the east end of the continent would have been a big help. I'm guessing this is why it's better to use fewer continents when getting used to new difficulty levels.

Here are my major takeaways from this thread:

1) The whip is MANDATORY!!!
2) Objectives need to be prioritized. The GL and war against ZY were both important objectives, but obviously nerfing ZY was more important, and should have come first.
3) Don't forget that barbs have boats. I lost several turns of production after three (that's right, THREE!!) barb galleys swooped in and destroyed all my fishing improvements. I had to deviate my tech path to grab MC and whip a trireme, then rebuild for fishing boats. This also contributed to the delay in going after ZY.

However, I will offer a mild defense of the Oracle. Normally, I never build it either. However, it was a synergetic build for SB. I had already built SH in Cahokia, and by adding the Oracle Cahokia would be pumping out 8 pure GP points per turn with the trait bonus. Grabbing COL was also very useful in establishing a shrine econ, and also helped in tech trading with ZY, because Confucianism spread to him rapidly as well. It was relatively cheap to build (only 150 shields) and was finished in a handful of turns.

Anyway, I've attached a few saves if anyone wants to take a look and make further recommendations. While this map is still probably salvageable (at least from an earlier date), I'm ready to move on, but I will probably come back to it later after some more practice.

View attachment Tim BC-0550.CivBeyondSwordSave

View attachment AutoSave_AD-1160.CivBeyondSwordSave

View attachment AutoSave_AD-1320.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Jedi_Otis]

At least we've broken you from your distaste for the whip. That alone should propel toward future success.

I still feel strongly about ignoring the religious techs. Once you start moving up in levels it becomes more and more difficult to reach them before the AIs who usually prioritize founding religions. Plus, what would you have done with your newfound confucianism if you would have had a couple of religious fanatic Buddhist whackjobs like Izzy or Brennus close by?

From a diplmatic standpoint, you'll find that more often than not, it's better to let the AIs found the religions and spread them to you, and then choose which side you want to be on.

 

[JBossch]

You seem to have identified your mis-steps fairly well. On the subject of war though I think you are underestimating how early you can attack on noble. Below monarch the AI doesn't start with archery which means you can rush with a few warriors. In this case, I would probs just wait for Dogs but you only need a few if you go right away. Even your later attack would have been fine if you had brought just 1 or 2 spears. Remember that chariots' bonus vs. axemen applies to axe-based UUs as well. Definitely don't even consider vassaling somebody at this stage. Feudalism is a long way off and you want your early rush target out of the way for good.

 

[thbrown81]

I definitely underestimated the AI in not putting together a blended stack. I had a few archers tossed in, but didn't have any spears because I had never hooked up the iron source in within my borders. I was thinking that I wouldn't need it since I could pump out dogs, cats, archers and chariots without it. However, I overlooked that chariots would be the ideal counter for the dogs, and couldn't get spears to the stack in time.

 

[Jedi_Otis]

I definitely underestimated the AI in not putting together a blended stack. I had a few archers tossed in, but didn't have any spears because I had never hooked up the iron source in within my borders. I was thinking that I wouldn't need it since I could pump out dogs, cats, archers and chariots without it. However, I overlooked that chariots would be the ideal counter for the dogs, and couldn't get spears to the stack in time.

Always pay attention to the "rock, paper, scissors" aspects of the units. Spears and Pikes are most effective against mounted units. This includes Elephants.

Also make note that sometimes it may be wise to not promote a unit as soon as it earns a promotion. "Combat" promotion is a straight 10% increase to a units effectiveness against all units. But the more specialized promotions give a 25% increase against specific units. When your on the attack, it might be better to wait to promote until you find out what sort of unit will be defending.

OTH, promoting a unit gives it an immediate boost to health, which may be the wiser choice if the unit is severly wounded.