[GS] Canada Discussion Thread

[Craig_Sutter]

England: Check out this game I just invented. I was gonna call it football, but I think I will call it soccer.

America: Hey, not bad. Canada, wanna play soccer with me?

England: Ha ha, loser, it's still called football!

America: Bah! Soccer sucks anyway. Canada, let's play some football. *throws ball* *tackles Canada*

https://www.cfl.ca/2011/05/15/birth-of-north-american-football-137-years/

I think the USA won 3-0. But it does show, "American" football is not just the USA's game!

 

[Krajzen]

What a terrible choice and design all around, to the point I am surprised youtube likes to dislikes ratio is as good as usual

Let's be honest, practically nobody other than Canadians (sorry guys) particularly desired Canada to be in the game at all, especially as we have both Dene (Canadian natives) and Australia already. I kind of hoped it won't be there, but once its presence was basically confirmed I thought "oh okay, maybe its design will be something interesting - stuff like northern exploration, hudson bay company, world war expeditionary forces".

Nope, it turns out Firaxis really only included Canada because of its fanservice "we include modern countries of numerous Civ fanbase" and had no vision for it at all. Total flat stereotype. Tundra, peace, hockey and horse police. None of bonuses is particularly active or powerful.

The worst part of it is how legions of fools shall repeat stereotype memes about Canada even more. I really hate that on Reddit, almost as much as "gandhi nuke" and "russian winter".

 

[Zaarin]

Lacross?

I'd rank it similar to hockey, I guess: better than most team sports.

 

[Josephias]

Wow, 20 pages of discussion on not-Sweden!! I think everything is coveder, and I tend to side with the ones who see the niche play as a positive to add variety. Bonuses may be bland and not as exploitable as others, making the civ not suited for competitive play. However, I'm not the kind of person who specially cares about this.

This is indeed an stereotypical Canada, but as some said, we've grown used to "historic" stereotypes (Spanish inquisition and religious zealotry <- you know much other countries, event protestant ones, burned heretics, even at faster rates tan Spain, didn't you?, Japanese samurais fighting until death <- you kow much other cultures had similar honor/warrior codes, didn't you?, Aztec human sacrifice <- a thing completely not present in other early cutures, right?, Koreans are geeks because the emphasis on education in some relevant phases of their history <- phases other civilizations might have been crossing too, isn't it? … and the list goes on). When necessary for , FXS knows to look in history books to find more obscure references that allow them to provide a different tilt to the civ, or just fit a mechanic, but if the treaded stereotype works, why bother?

With Canada, it seems clear they wanted to fill the tundra spot with a ¿contender? for Russia (there are several pages of discussion already on wheter if it actually contends or just bothers, so I won't enter here), and of course, provide them a different approach. As many have already said, this is an xplore and xpand civ, that allows you to use territory others won't want. This does not prohibit you for going first towards the good non-tundra spots, mind you, just allows you continuing expanding in the tundra (taiga) afterwards, maybe getting these extra resources or luxuries without having to invest in an early war (yes, this normally pays off nevertheles, as far as the game is balanced now, but you might like a more peaceful approach - and the key here is to offer a different option, not necessarily a better option).

Ice hokey rinks reinforce the "snowy" culture, and provide an extra incentive to staying in extreme latitudes (you cannot build them on the desert or in the middle of rainforest, and you wouldn't want either, as the bonus adjacency is minor). They are probably just a goodie and not really a gamebreaker (but, well, they are better than Thsike at least ). They may look cheesy, but I like the approach of some post stating these are not "professional" playfields, but the sort of ones where common people/kids would go and play, which ties to its culture production related to "enjoying the cold". I don't know really if Canadian people feels living in the cold is part of its culture (i know for Finnish people is, and they also like ice hockey), and some posts suggests that not at all, but well, this is the first stereotype.

Mounties and national Parks are also a clear stereotype, but fits well with expanding in the Tundra (you really may try to space more there, and find spare good appeal tiles there to get more national Parks). The bonus fighting around them seems something they had to had when they remembered they were providing a military unit. But is reasonable to making it as well fit a "wildlands-adapted" unit (I'd rather have them having bonuses at forest, in addition to NP), for it to be a more useful feature. (It fits with the sharpshoter suggestion in other areas, and with some of the military links of the mounties. While in the XX century they have had a more defensive and "pólice" role, they are proud to highight in their own site that in the Boer Wars "Many Members and ex-Members of the Force were recruited at NWMP posts and made up approximately 40% of the newly raised Canadian Mounted Rifles. This unit was highly effective overseas and earned a reputation for aggressive scouting". Just think of the Mounties not just as nowadays police, but as any Canadian military unit that benefits from having a source of rough-terrain military-structured homeforce.

OK for me. As they are providing an alternate gameplay option, it does feel the slot is well used in some way. Bonuses may be bland, but as someone who enjoys the part of exploring the map and selecting the "nice" spots where founding your cities on, I appreciate the extended possibility Canada offers for this. I do not find the stereotypes being that big that make the civ a caricature, which is what should be avoided - I underestand people more knowledgeable of Canada might have wanted to have other traits highlighted… but this is a first step -> when these traits fits the mechanics/strategy wanted for the civ in a new game, they Will be used: See Britain England: they changed from being a Cultural Expoliator (stereotype) to an Industrial Mogul (stereotype) just by switching expansión. (For France it was the same in last game: they traded away its cultural heritage (Ancient Regime) by its capitol-centered chauvinism)

 

[agonistes]

Wow, 20 pages of discussion on not-Sweden!! I think everything is coveder, and I tend to side with the ones who see the niche play as a positive to add variety. Bonuses may be bland and not as exploitable as others, making the civ not suited for competitive play. However, I'm not the kind of person who specially cares about this.

This is indeed an stereotypical Canada, but as some said, we've grown used to "historic" stereotypes (Spanish inquisition and religious zealotry <- you know much other countries, event protestant ones, burned heretics, even at faster rates tan Spain, didn't you?, Japanese samurais fighting until death <- you kow much other cultures had similar honor/warrior codes, didn't you?, Aztec human sacrifice <- a thing completely not present in other early cutures, right?, Koreans are geeks because the emphasis on education in some relevant phases of their history <- phases other civilizations might have been crossing too, isn't it? … and the list goes on). When necessary for , FXS knows to look in history books to find more obscure references that allow them to provide a different tilt to the civ, or just fit a mechanic, but if the treaded stereotype works, why bother?

With Canada, it seems clear they wanted to fill the tundra spot with a ¿contender? for Russia (there are several pages of discussion already on wheter if it actually contends or just bothers, so I won't enter here), and of course, provide them a different approach. As many have already said, this is an xplore and xpand civ, that allows you to use territory others won't want. This does not prohibit you for going first towards the good non-tundra spots, mind you, just allows you continuing expanding in the tundra (taiga) afterwards, maybe getting these extra resources or luxuries without having to invest in an early war (yes, this normally pays off nevertheles, as far as the game is balanced now, but you might like a more peaceful approach - and the key here is to offer a different option, not necessarily a better option).

Ice hokey rinks reinforce the "snowy" culture, and provide an extra incentive to staying in extreme latitudes (you cannot build them on the desert or in the middle of rainforest, and you wouldn't want either, as the bonus adjacency is minor). They are probably just a goodie and not really a gamebreaker (but, well, they are better than Thsike at least ). They may look cheesy, but I like the approach of some post stating these are not "professional" playfields, but the sort of ones where common people/kids would go and play, which ties to its culture production related to "enjoying the cold". I don't know really if Canadian people feels living in the cold is part of its culture (i know for Finnish people is, and they also like ice hockey), and some posts suggests that not at all, but well, this is the first stereotype.

Mounties and national Parks are also a clear stereotype, but fits well with expanding in the Tundra (you really may try to space more there, and find spare good appeal tiles there to get more national Parks). The bonus fighting around them seems something they had to had when they remembered they were providing a military unit. But is reasonable to making it as well fit a "wildlands-adapted" unit (I'd rather have them having bonuses at forest, in addition to NP), for it to be a more useful feature. (It fits with the sharpshoter suggestion in other areas, and with some of the military links of the mounties. While in the XX century they have had a more defensive and "pólice" role, they are proud to highight in their own site that in the Boer Wars "Many Members and ex-Members of the Force were recruited at NWMP posts and made up approximately 40% of the newly raised Canadian Mounted Rifles. This unit was highly effective overseas and earned a reputation for aggressive scouting". Just think of the Mounties not just as nowadays police, but as any Canadian military unit that benefits from having a source of rough-terrain military-structured homeforce.

OK for me. As they are providing an alternate gameplay option, it does feel the slot is well used in some way. Bonuses may be bland, but as someone who enjoys the part of exploring the map and selecting the "nice" spots where founding your cities on, I appreciate the extended possibility Canada offers for this. I do not find the stereotypes being that big that make the civ a caricature, which is what should be avoided - I underestand people more knowledgeable of Canada might have wanted to have other traits highlighted… but this is a first step -> when these traits fits the mechanics/strategy wanted for the civ in a new game, they Will be used: See Britain England: they changed from being a Cultural Expoliator (stereotype) to an Industrial Mogul (stereotype) just by switching expansión. (For France it was the same in last game: they traded away its cultural heritage (Ancient Regime) by its capitol-centered chauvinism)

In 6 months Canada will be a fan favorite. Okay, maybe 2 years... but it will happen.

 

[Giskler]

Well it's already the Canadian palace.

Oh, I thought that was Parliament Hill. Why the hell would they make Château Frontenac the palace?

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Lacross?

Saving that for the Iroquis perhaps?

 

[Zaarin]

Aztec human sacrifice <- a thing completely not present in other early cutures, right?

Actually, the scale of Aztec human sacrifice is unparalleled, even elsewhere in Mesoamerica or in Canaan.

 

[Krajzen]

In 6 months Canada will be a fan favorite. Okay, maybe 2 years... but it will happen.

In the same way fanservice Georgia did?
Honestly Canada risks being rather low on the power list...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If teams and balls are involved, it's stupid. Hockey...is almost but not quite tolerable, which puts it ahead of any other team sport.

Because it has a puck?

I'd rank it similar to hockey, I guess: better than most team sports.

At least the Native Americans invented it.
I am going to picture sweet lacrosse games in the stadiums every time the Cree and Canada are allies now.

 

[Zaarin]

Because it has a puck?

Honestly I couldn't say why I find hockey less offputting than other sports. I'm not about to become a fan and you couldn't pay me (unless it were a very large sum ) to attend a game, but for some ineffable reason I find it less...offensive?

 

[thecrazyscot]

It makes sense that Ice Hockey Rinks give food since this is how Canadians are born.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

It makes sense that Ice Hockey Rinks give food since this is how Canadians are born.

Do they have a small population boost 9 months after each Stanley Cup?

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Just thinking about the tundra natural wonders that'll be truly spectacular for this civ... makes me drool.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

It makes sense that Ice Hockey Rinks give food since this is how Canadians are born.

Pfff. He's just retrieving the last puck, since otherwise they'd have to call the game.

 

[pgm123]

Sorry, there is only one football. By definition: foot is obvious, anything that you play with the hands, even for a moment, does not comply with the foot part anymore. And about the ball part, well, look up the definition of a ball, it's pretty clear, and an egg can never be forced to comply with it.

There is not nor has there ever been one football. It had as many different rules as random villages with peasants trying to blow off steam. There's footy, rugby, American football, Gaelic football, Australian rules football and that's not even differentiating between Arena Football and Canadian or Rugby Union and Rugby League.

England: Check out this game I just invented. I was gonna call it football, but I think I will call it soccer.

America: Hey, not bad. Canada, wanna play soccer with me?

England: Ha ha, loser, it's still called football!

America: Bah! Soccer sucks anyway. Canada, let's play some football. *throws ball* *tackles Canada*

This is actually a historical reenactment.

https://www.cfl.ca/2011/05/15/birth-of-north-american-football-137-years/

I think the USA won 3-0. But it does show, "American" football is not just the USA's game!

Right. Though Canada, the USA, Mexico, etc. are all a part of America.

 

[Josephias]

Actually, the scale of Aztec human sacrifice is unparalleled, even elsewhere in Mesoamerica or in Canaan.

I will make no claim to deny this statement, as I am no expert in the matter, but I guess it will depend on sources, context and convention. e.g. Do we count Spartan Helot assassination as "ritual sacrifice"? (could be considered, in some way).

 

[wilcoxchar]

Everyone who thinks the Four Faces of Peace ability is there because Canadians are stereotyped as nice seriously needs to read up on their history.

As soon as I read the bonuses from the ability, I immediately thought of only one reason why it's Canada's ability: Lester B. Pearson. And sure enough, the term "four faces of peace" comes from Pearson's Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech.

Pearson has a storied diplomatic career that made him one of Canada's greatest contributors to the global stage, and I'm a little surprised they went with Laurier for leader over him, though I can see why they might not want a leader that recent. Pearson played a huge role in the creation of the United Nations, and was almost assured the position of first UN Secretary General if it weren't for a Soviet veto (and again in 1953, received 10 of 11 votes for Secretary General but the Soviets vetoed him again). Pearson continued his efforts in building the UN as a global mediating and peacekeeping organization, leading the creation of the emergency force to calm the Suez Crisis. This was one of the first instances of a UN pecekeeping mission and Pearson's work earned him the Nobel Peace Prize and led to the "blue helmets" and a permanent UN peacekeeping force and the very idea of modern international peacekeeping efforts.

So I can't really think of a better ability for Canada, especially with the rework of diplomacy and the addition of the World Congress, than an echo of Pearson's efforts.

 

[Phrozen]

Actually, the scale of Aztec human sacrifice is unparalleled, even elsewhere in Mesoamerica or in Canaan.

Yep and usually not quite as bloody. The Inca for example prefered drowning and strangulation and not nearly on the scale that the Aztecs did it. You don't have reports of temples almost scabbing over due to the vast amount of blood from dismemberment occuring.

 

[Jkchart]

I like the diplomacy traits. That feels spot-on for Canada's participation in world wars as well as peacekeeping missions.

I was apprehensive about the mounties, but having them found parks is a good ability for them.

I'm pretty meh about the tundra farms. It will work, but it's not very good for representing how Canadians use the tundra. Bonus strategic resources is good though.

The hockey rink is very sigh-inducing. I liked the idea of the railroad hotels better. But it does work well for my playstyle.

Overall, Canada looks fun.

I can agree with these sentiments.