Christian Schisms?

[EulerMcE]

Is there an XML file that tells you what civ picks which religion? Did they go for Eastern Orthodox for Assyria or did they default to something else?

 

[Ulthwithian]

Probably, Euler. I would rather think that Ethiopia would almost be Orthodox rather than Catholic... anyone know?

If he's Catholic, then an early Orthodoxy Religion would almost certainly be Theodora...

 

[pilot00]

Not to be pedantic, but he actually was dead while on the cross.

Now we are all intelligent enough to understand what I meant right?

 

[BluegrassGeek]

Now we are all intelligent enough to understand what I meant right?

Okay, you can back down now. No need for veiled insults. I was pointing out that referring to Jesus as dead on the cross is true, and I can't see how that's offensive. Now, calling him "dead" in general, I can get. But, we're referring to the image of him hanging from the cross, when he actually was.

 

[Sheershaw]

Anyone know what the religion for Assyria is?

I imagine it's Islam, but if I would have picked Eastern Orthodox. The region of the Assyrian empire is now mostly Muslim, yes, but the Assyrian people themselves are mostly Christian.

 

[JustinianIV]

Probably, Euler. I would rather think that Ethiopia would almost be Orthodox rather than Catholic... anyone know?

If he's Catholic, then an early Orthodoxy Religion would almost certainly be Theodora...

You are correct in this assumption. Ethiopian Orthodoxy (aka Coptic) is almost identical to Eastern Orthodoxy. If you were to compare it to Catholicism, especially post-Vatican II, you would see many differences that simply aren't there with the Eastern Orthodox.

I like how Byzantium's symbol is the three-barred-cross, but this isn't accurate historically. This is a Russian Cross, and the Greek Cross(s) look more like this:



That being said, I am glad that they chose the Russian Cross for Byzantium, because that is the cross that people today most associate with Orthodoxy.

Oh yes, and Theodora was not Orthodox. They really should have had Justinian as in previous Civs. Or Constantine or the other Constantine, or the other Justinian!

 

[pilot00]

Okay, you can back down now. No need for veiled insults. I was pointing out that referring to Jesus as dead on the cross is true, and I can't see how that's offensive. Now, calling him "dead" in general, I can get. But, we're referring to the image of him hanging from the cross, when he actually was.

Its not a veiled insult, I was referring to the fact that you understood what I meant.
And the image you speak of is not necessary on the moment of death, but we are derailing the topic with this.

Oh yes, and Theodora was not Orthodox. They really should have had Justinian as in previous Civs. Or Constantine or the other Constantine, or the other Justinian!

True she was a Monophisitea, but it was mainly done (the inclusion) to have another female leader in the game me thinks. If you ask me it was not worth the trouble. As for emperor Constantine, well the first one was not an Christian at first and despite the fact that he and his mother (Helen) are canonized by the Orthodox church, there are conflicting rumors that he might not have converted. Though it seems unlikely since his mother was so devoted to the church that fashioned him a helmet from the molted down remains of Jesus's nails.
So including him might or might not be a good way to represent a religious Byzantium as it is depicted in the game.
As for the last Constantine, he barely had any time to do anything before the empire fell. Actually he barely made it to Constantinople after his coronation before the capital fell. All that is known of him is that he tried to rally the last vestiges of an army and civil defense and he died a patriots death.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

I would've prefered if they'd gone with generic schisms for all religions, e.g. Orthodox <any given religion>, Bloodline <any given religion>, Populist <any given religion> and Reformed <any given religion>.

Of course these factions would only emerge from the largest religion(s) in each game.

 

[Adjuvant]

You guys forgot Kharijites.

I imagine Islamic schisms were omitted because the issue is entirely too political and would attract undue attention to a simple system. To an "outsider", the disparity is as silly as the Lilliputian conflict, but to the devout the view of one sect from another commonly is something along the lines of "they are not really muslims". To wit, many christians say, "mormonism isn't christianity", and many protestants feel catholocism was the "worst thing to happen to christianity".

Were there shia empires before modern day Iran? Certainly. The Fatimid, or "fourth caliphate" was massive, spanning north africa and had power centers in Tunisia and Egypt. That all ended with Saladin's rise to power. Subsequently, many Berbers before the 16th century were Shia, but that, too, has changed. I imagine if you want split hairs, the (argued) "first caliph", Ali ibn Abi Talib could be said to have been Shia, as his ascendency really defines the disparity in Sunni/Shia contention. This is alot like saying "Peter was the first catholic pope", even though the concept of "catholocism" or "universal church" evolved over a century later.

All in all, "most" caliphs and ottoman emperors have enjoyed the support of both shia and sunni, with the occasional dispute having roots in eras of "power vacuums". It's during these painful transitions conflicting imams would contend who should "lead" because of descendency or "proclamation by god". It becomes alot like a visceral and violent presidential election. I've no problem with "Islam with no schism" in the game because I'm not politically involved in the motivation, and I'm willing to bet neither are most of you.

 

[pilot00]

@Adjuvant:

I am an Orthodox Christian, but truth be told I feel all religions should have their branches represented since the dev team decided to go that way. It would even be better if they decided to add more religions instead of two new branches, and instead include those branches into the reformation mechanic along side the branches of other established religions.

I believe laziness in part to blame as well as the number of Christian factions and lack of other religions represented in the game. As an example they could have omitted Rome and Greece from Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity by simply adding the old Dodecatheon religion of ancient Greece, that was later adopted by Rome. Heck call it idolatry if you must...

I am sure a lot of others have great ideas too. For the most part we indeed are spiting hairs Our answer will come (and partly it already has) through mods.

 

[BluegrassGeek]

Its not a veiled insult, I was referring to the fact that you understood what I meant.
And the image you speak of is not necessary on the moment of death, but we are derailing the topic with this.

Fair enough.

 

[Sonereal]

I believe laziness in part to blame as well as the number of Christian factions and lack of other religions represented in the game. As an example they could have omitted Rome and Greece from Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity by simply adding the old Dodecatheon religion of ancient Greece, that was later adopted by Rome. Heck call it idolatry if you must...

One is marketable, the other isn't.

 

[Adjuvant]

"Droids don't pull people's arms out of their sockets when they lose."

This is alot like what I think is happening. Christian sects won't attack (figuratively? literally?) Firaxis if the segregation is discussed and included. Honestly, you know it as well as I, you're "tugging a dog's chain" even mentioning Islam in a video game. No one wants to make it worse, or they may have to move in with Salman Rushdie or the guys from Jyllands-Posten.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

@Adjuvant:

I am an Orthodox Christian, but truth be told I feel all religions should have their branches represented since the dev team decided to go that way. It would even be better if they decided to add more religions instead of two new branches, and instead include those branches into the reformation mechanic along side the branches of other established religions.

I believe laziness in part to blame as well as the number of Christian factions and lack of other religions represented in the game. As an example they could have omitted Rome and Greece from Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity by simply adding the old Dodecatheon religion of ancient Greece, that was later adopted by Rome. Heck call it idolatry if you must...

I am sure a lot of others have great ideas too. For the most part we indeed are spiting hairs Our answer will come (and partly it already has) through mods.

Well I think the reason for splitting Christianity but not others was

1. limiting the total # of religions so they are recognizable... if you gave a few thousand icons to represent every minor sect, they would be confusing as people wouldn't see them that often.

2. Christianity had the unique situation that 2/3 or so of the civs favored it leading to
---civs that 'should' be christian being unable to choose it (because someone else had)
---players that wanted to choose christianity being unable to choose it (because someone else had)
---christianity almost always being a major religion in the game (reduced variety)

By splitting Christianity up,
AI civs and players have a better chance of choosing their ideal form of christianity.
Also, there is increased variety.."christianity" will probably dominate but different versions will.



Basically its not because Christianity itself is popular, its because Christian (ie western) civs are popular.. (and also because the global success of western civs led to many other areas (africa, americas) being put into the christian civ group.

 

[pilot00]

Well I think the reason for splitting Christianity but not others was

1. limiting the total # of religions so they are recognizable... if you gave a few thousand icons to represent every minor sect, they would be confusing as people wouldn't see them that often.

2. Christianity had the unique situation that 2/3 or so of the civs favored it leading to
---civs that 'should' be christian being unable to choose it (because someone else had)
---players that wanted to choose christianity being unable to choose it (because someone else had)
---christianity almost always being a major religion in the game (reduced variety)

By splitting Christianity up,
AI civs and players have a better chance of choosing their ideal form of christianity.
Also, there is increased variety.."christianity" will probably dominate but different versions will.



Basically its not because Christianity itself is popular, its because Christian (ie western) civs are popular.. (and also because the global success of western civs led to many other areas (africa, americas) being put into the christian civ group.

I agree with everything on the most part but not with with the first point of 2.
There are muslim factions that would want to choose it but will be unable too as well.

 

[turingmachine]

Just use Tomatekh's Historical Religions mod:



To the OP, he said he plans to make optional add on packs that add new denominations (Theravada, Mah&#257;y&#257;na, or Vajray&#257;na Buddhism for example) in the future.

Also, Christianity was split up because there are civs that would actually use the schisms (although Ethiopia is listed as Eastern Orthodox when in fact they are not Eastern but Oriental Orthodox which is a separate denomination). With the exception of adding Oriental Orthodoxy for Ethiopia, there's no point to add additional Christian denominations that no civ would have a preference for (there are no Latter Day Saints civ, for example, and Anglican can be assumed into Protestantism). There are also no official civs that would use Islamic denominations (all included are Sunni; Persia/Iran which would use Shia is depicted as the ancient empire in the game and so uses Zoroastrianism; Oman is not in the game to add Ibadi) or Buddhist (only Siam has a Buddhist preference) etc. etc. etc.

 

[flairin]

I am bothered by these Christian schisms. I don't understand why the devs had to set a bias of civs to preferred religions... personally I think it would be best if the AI chose totally at random.

 

[JustinianIV]

@Adjuvant:

I am an Orthodox Christian, but truth be told I feel all religions should have their branches represented since the dev team decided to go that way. It would even be better if they decided to add more religions instead of two new branches, and instead include those branches into the reformation mechanic along side the branches of other established religions.

I believe laziness in part to blame as well as the number of Christian factions and lack of other religions represented in the game. As an example they could have omitted Rome and Greece from Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity by simply adding the old Dodecatheon religion of ancient Greece, that was later adopted by Rome. Heck call it idolatry if you must...

I am sure a lot of others have great ideas too. For the most part we indeed are spiting hairs Our answer will come (and partly it already has) through mods.

I disagree with this. It takes me out of the immersion when I see Byzantium spreading Hinduism, or Mecca rocking Tengriism. Some aren't bothered by it though.

Next time Firaxis, make this the Catholic symbol. The current Greek cross makes no sense and is obscure and confusing. Danke.

 

[pilot00]

I disagree with this. It takes me out of the immersion when I see Byzantium spreading Hinduism, or Mecca rocking Tengriism. Some aren't bothered by it though.

Next time Firaxis, make this the Catholic symbol. The current Greek cross makes no sense and is obscure and confusing. Danke.

There are a lot of immersion breakers in the game. The very first (that has a religious background and semi relative to this thread and my first personal choice) is for example the Hagia Sophia. All wonders in the game are represented as they were during their construction but said wonder has both the Cross missing atop it and it has the minarates that were build roughly 1100 years after its construction by the Ottomans. Another one is the Parthenon, what are the roman legions doing there? Athens was a protectorate and the Roman legions never entered Athens in force. The garrison was outside the city in recognition of Athens as the cultural ancestry/precedence of Rome.

Anyway this is most probably the biggest immersion breaker -->

TLDR: Immersion is a whole other matter and simply put, the game doesn't have enough religions as it is to support all civs. More-so, when every civ has a chance to found a religion of its won you are running of 'immersive' options no matter what.

May I ask what is the symbol you propose? I have never happened upon it before.

 

[Kwami]

I disagree with this. It takes me out of the immersion when I see Byzantium spreading Hinduism, or Mecca rocking Tengriism. Some aren't bothered by it though.

Next time Firaxis, make this the Catholic symbol. The current Greek cross makes no sense and is obscure and confusing. Danke.

The symbol of the guy that founded Constantinople and thus the father of the Byzantine Empire, which practiced Orthodoxy? Wouldn't that be a bit confusing when we actually have Byzantium or Orthodoxy in the game? What if we had Constantine instead of Theodora?

I understand that it's today a Christogram, but it's hardly as representative of Catholicism as the crucifix, Mary's cross, the Cross of Salem, or the Papal Cross. In fact, even the Pope's "keys to heaven" symbol would be better, I think.