Christian Schisms?

[El Caballerion]

They should definitely add Sunni and Shia because there are at least 7 Muslim civs in the game I can think of. I don't think Buddhism & the rest need to be split up. I would like to see a decent religion reflected for the Native American civs though. Something as generic as PAGANISM or ANIMISM would be good.

 

[Kwami]

They should definitely add Sunni and Shia because there are at least 7 Muslim civs in the game I can think of. I don't think Buddhism & the rest need to be split up. I would like to see a decent religion reflected for the Native American civs though. Something as generic as PAGANISM or ANIMISM would be good.

But none of the civilizations in the game would practice Shi'a, so adding the separate branches is rather pointless.

EDIT: And isn't it a bit inconsistent to insist on splitting Islam into separate branches while lumping every American civilization into "paganism"?

 

[BluegrassGeek]

They should definitely add Sunni and Shia because there are at least 7 Muslim civs in the game I can think of. I don't think Buddhism & the rest need to be split up. I would like to see a decent religion reflected for the Native American civs though. Something as generic as PAGANISM or ANIMISM would be good.

While Native American beliefs are animistic, there's nothing organized enough to call a "religion."

After reading more about the Shoshone on Wikipedia, I just named my religion "Ghost Dance" when it unlocked and used the Tengriism bird symbol to represent a Thunderbird.

 

[EulerMcE]

Is there an XML file that tells you what civ picks which religion? Did they go for Eastern Orthodox for Assyria or did they default to something else?

Went and had a look. Apparently Assyria chooses Zoroastrianism. I'm not sure if that's really accurate.

The schism seems to be:
Catholic
Austria, Aztec, Brazil, Celts, Denmark, France, Inca, Maya, Poland, Polynesia, Portugal, Rome, Spain, Venice

Denmark and Polynesia are probably Catholic because the tag used is "religion_christianity" and they didn't change it.

Protestant:
America, England, Iroquois, Germany, Netherlands, Shoshone, Sweden, Zulu

Eastern Orthodox:
Byzantium, Ethiopia, Greece, Russia

For the other new civs: Assyria-Zoroastrianism, Indonesia-Hinduism, Morocco-Islam

 

[Louis XXIV]

While Native American beliefs are animistic, there's nothing organized enough to call a "religion."

I think that depends on where you're talking about. Certainly, the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex was nothing to sniff at. It also was the root of plenty of Algonquin and Iroquoian religions. Out west, there were religions with characters like Crow and Coyote, but I don't think the Great Horned Serpent qualifies as just an animistic religion.

 

[JustinianIV]

There are a lot of immersion breakers in the game. The very first (that has a religious background and semi relative to this thread and my first personal choice) is for example the Hagia Sophia. All wonders in the game are represented as they were during their construction but said wonder has both the Cross missing atop it and it has the minarates that were build roughly 1100 years after its construction by the Ottomans. Another one is the Parthenon, what are the roman legions doing there? Athens was a protectorate and the Roman legions never entered Athens in force. The garrison was outside the city in recognition of Athens as the cultural ancestry/precedence of Rome.

Anyway this is most probably the biggest immersion breaker -->

TLDR: Immersion is a whole other matter and simply put, the game doesn't have enough religions as it is to support all civs. More-so, when every civ has a chance to found a religion of its won you are running of 'immersive' options no matter what.

May I ask what is the symbol you propose? I have never happened upon it before.

I hadn't even noticed that the Hagia Sophia was missing its crosses. I guess it was taken from a modern painting.

 

[JustinianIV]

The symbol of the guy that founded Constantinople and thus the father of the Byzantine Empire, which practiced Orthodoxy? Wouldn't that be a bit confusing when we actually have Byzantium or Orthodoxy in the game? What if we had Constantine instead of Theodora?

I understand that it's today a Christogram, but it's hardly as representative of Catholicism as the crucifix, Mary's cross, the Cross of Salem, or the Papal Cross. In fact, even the Pope's "keys to heaven" symbol would be better, I think.

This is true, the Chi Rho could also be said to be more of an Orthodoxy thing than a RC thing since Constantine is a Saint to the Orthodox, but not to Rome. However, it is a symbol which is today more recognizable as a RC symbol. This is the same for other insignia like the three-barred cross used for Orthodoxy and Byzantium. This is a Russian cross, though it has become the most identifiable insignia for Orthodoxy in general today.

Personally, I see no problem with putting pretty much every religion one could think of in the game to let the player choose from. It's not like it would be difficult or game changing. They have no practical function.

 

[flairin]

That is pretty laughable how they linked different civs to their respective religions

 

[BluegrassGeek]

I think that depends on where you're talking about. Certainly, the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex was nothing to sniff at. It also was the root of plenty of Algonquin and Iroquoian religions. Out west, there were religions with characters like Crow and Coyote, but I don't think the Great Horned Serpent qualifies as just an animistic religion.

Not saying there weren't commonalities, but it's hardly an organized religion. I'd consider them more non-organized pantheon beliefs than a single, identifiable religion. NA beliefs strike me as similar to Greco-Roman pantheons, where there were various beings to be revered in their own ways, but no overarching religion encompassing them all.

Not putting any of these down, mind. I love reading some of the stories that've been passed down through generations. A few I've read are... rather explicit. And I'm not a religious scholar, so I may be overlooking something.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Well, it's hard to say. The Mississippians didn't write things down. If we're talking about modern Monotheistic religions that have incorporated quite a bit of philosophy, you might very well be right. I don't think we have enough information to go by it.

Fortunately, I don't need to make any kind of value determinations to say that Native American religions are well-represented by Pantheons, just like Greco-Roman religion. The game is pretty clear that its divide is between modern religions with a sizable amount of followers and ancient religions. Many of these religions were about veneration as opposed to conduct and philosophy, but I think that's ancillary. The overwhelming majority of Native Americans are Christian, so it's appropriate even for them to just have Christianity.

 

[flairin]

I wouldn't put a valuation on religion, and when somebody speaks of Organized Religion that is what they are doing. The better term to use is World Religion, and obviously that is what is represented in this game. The flavor of these different schisms will be significant (take Catholicism for example) depending on many factors including geography, resources, and the historical/indigenous religious beliefs. If Christianity is going to be so highly represented in this game why not do the same for other religious philosophies. World Religions in the globe encompass around 80% of membership. So roughly 20% are left out, or about 1 billion people!!

http://books.google.com/books?id=7r...epage&q="world religion" anthropology&f=false

 

[pilot00]

Not saying there weren't commonalities, but it's hardly an organized religion. I'd consider them more non-organized pantheon beliefs than a single, identifiable religion. NA beliefs strike me as similar to Greco-Roman pantheons, where there were various beings to be revered in their own ways, but no overarching religion encompassing them all.

Not putting any of these down, mind. I love reading some of the stories that've been passed down through generations. A few I've read are... rather explicit. And I'm not a religious scholar, so I may be overlooking something.

Actually the ancient Greek Pantheon was completely organized. There were high priests and central authorities, but it was different than in modern religions. One of the criteria to be recognized as a non barbarian by the Greeks and therefore be allowed to participate in the Olympic games was to be following their religion.

 

[BluegrassGeek]

Well, it's hard to say. The Mississippians didn't write things down. If we're talking about modern Monotheistic religions that have incorporated quite a bit of philosophy, you might very well be right. I don't think we have enough information to go by it.

Well, not even monotheistic. Hinduism is pretty clearly a religion, with specific doctrines and practices, but features a pantheon of gods. Shinto is very organized and based on specific rites, but doesn't feature specific "gods" of worship. NA beliefs aren't rigid, and vary from region to region, hence my not placing them under the umbrella of organized religion.

Actually the ancient Greek Pantheon was completely organized. There were high priests and central authorities, but it was different than in modern religions. One of the criteria to be recognized as a non barbarian by the Greeks and therefore be allowed to participate in the Olympic games was to be following their religion.

To my understanding, this was only in Athens. Outlying regions would have different focuses for gods they preferred & local worship practices. You were expected to adhere to Athens' religious standards when interacting with Athens (for the Olympics, as you mentioned), but other areas did their own thing when they didn't need to directly bother dealing with Athens. As I said though, I'm not a religious scholar, so I may be mistaken on that.

 

[JustinianIV]

Aren't/weren't most Native-North American religions monotheistic? I've never heard of any of them having more than one God.

 

[Sam Kwon]

I wish they would add animism or shamanism- although broad, it cover's many tribal religions. This way we don't have to deal with an anachronistically protestant Pocatello or Kamehameha whilst relieving the demand on Christianity which-even with the schism is still highly sought after.

Also a ranked preference system would be nice. Like say a Christian nation still goes for Protestantism if it misses out on Catholicism or say Korea goes for Buddhism if Confucianism is taken. I once had a game where Catholicism was taken and Maria the craycray opted for Sikhism over Protestantism. (Apologies if your a Portuguese Sikh)

 

[turingmachine]

You can't argue against including things like a NA native religion or Grecro-Roman religion by saying they're too un-organized or too animistic or shamanistic when the game included Tengri and Shinto as part of the official religions. Tengri was really no more organized than most of those examples and both Tengri and Shinto are animistic. This is also why broad categories like Animism and Shamanism won't work, as you already have animistic and shamanistic religions officially included.

 

[BluegrassGeek]

Aren't/weren't most Native-North American religions monotheistic? I've never heard of any of them having more than one God.

Though some recognize a "Great Spirit" above the others, most of the day-to-day interaction was with animistic spirits. Depends on your definition of a god, I suppose.

You can't argue against including things like a NA native religion or Grecro-Roman religion by saying they're too un-organized or too animistic or shamanistic when the game included Tengri and Shinto as part of the official religions. Tengri was really no more organized than most of those examples and both Tengri and Shinto are animistic. This is also why broad categories like Animism and Shamanism won't work, as you already have animistic and shamanistic religions officially included.

Okay, what's the name of the Native American religion you want to include? Does it actually have tenets, common rituals, etc.?

 

[Highly Sassy]

Okay, what's the name of the Native American religion you want to include? Does it actually have tenets, common rituals, etc.?

Well, the Aztecs (more properly the Nahuas, or even Mexihcah) had a pretty advanced philosophical system based around a concept known as teotl. It's comparable to the Chinese dao, and the system of "gods" surrounding both popular and educated religion were sometimes seen as manifestations of natural forces and aspects, somewhat like Hindu deities. I really don't know what you could call it, although Tomatekh dug up the title "Tlateomatiliztli" (meaning "worthy of worship" or something) for his(her?) Historical Religions mod.

I'm pretty sure that the Maya and Quechua (i.e. Inca) religions were comparatively advanced as well, but I don't know as much about them. Outside of Mesoamerica and the Andes, I'd be hard-pressed to give you the name of anything amounting to a religion by these standards. Tomatekh used Hawenneyu for the Iroquois as well as Wakan Tanka (Sioux), Kachina (Pueblo), Southern Cult (Mississippian), and Pajelança (Tupí/other Amazonian), and I think he(she?)'s working on a Shoshone religion. Might be Ghost Dance, probably not.

Of course, the most important thing to remember here is that religion has a much looser definition than what most of us are used to. Heck, I could argue that Communism with a capital C is more suited as a religion than Confucianism.

 

[Attaturk]

Speaking of islam, I don't believe there are any civs in the game that are shia.

What about Darius?

 

[UkrNixon]

What about Darius?

He uses Zoroastrism anyway, so shia is really not needed. Well, maybe Nebby could use it, but it would be better to add a mesopotamian religion for him instead.