City State Diplomacy Mod (Updated)

civ_z · Jul 7, 2012

Thanks for the info.

cleaner · Jul 8, 2012

You said you changed Sweden's UA because they were overpowered. Did you mean in general, as in Vanilla as well, or specifically in your mod? If you meant mainly the mod, then why are they stronger there in your opinion? Do they always get 90 Influence when a Diplomatic Unit is used by them?

Thanks a lot.

V. Soma · Jul 10, 2012

Gazebo said:
Just clear your cache and set CivUP compatibility in the options.sql file for CSD. Not a bug in CSD, just a common cache-related issue with mods and the civ5 SQL databases.

Hm, can you pls explain it a bit more?

cleaner · Jul 10, 2012

I'm afraid in addition to my previously posted question I also experience rather frequent crashes, sometimes when moving a unit during my turn and just now during the AI's turn.
In addition to your mod I'm also using all currently released "Civ Accurate Maps" by sukritact as well as the two latest wonders by Pouakai (the Shwedagon Paya which I successfully used without a crash and the Stone Town).
The crashes don't appear at a certain year or turn and so far a simple reload will let me continue playing.
I'm currently still using version 1.0.1.674. Was the newest version of your mod made for this one or for 1.0.1.705 already?
I had the same things happen a long time ago, way before G&K came out with the CivUp+VEM and Ethnic Diversity (R.E.D. Unofficial). There I could fix it by deleting civ5artdefines_unitmembers.xml from CivUP+VEM because both mods were using this file and that caused a problem. I'm using only the mods listed above now though, so have no idea where a conflict could be.

PS: In my mods folder I also have two buildings, a Textile Mill and a Goldsmith, but neither of those is activated.

PPS: I'm playing a Large map (generated randomly, size included) as Carthage on Epic speed.

PPPS: I changed the options.sql file to leave Sweden's UA unchanged compared to Vanilla as well as changing everything else that's changing how much reputation you get for gold gifts, to basically have the same effect from gold gifts as well as diplomacy units.

Gazebo · Jul 11, 2012

V. Soma said:
Hm, can you pls explain it a bit more?

Whenever you load a new mod, the data from the mod is entered into Civ's SQL database caches (which contain all units, buildings, techs, etc, along with their data). If a new mod is added, these databases (in your cache folder) do not always update correctly and/or cause compatibility problems. Thus, when you add a new mod to civ5, it is prudent to delete these cached database files so that the game has to recreate them (with your new mod data) from scratch.

With regards to cleaner (quite the post!), I'm sorry to hear you are having problems. What version of CSD are you using, and did you update CSD during a save game (or have you been using the same version of CSD throughout the duration of your current game)? Also, keep in mind that files in the mod folder, even if not checked, will, in fact, be loaded into the game's databases, even if they don't appear in the game.

My best suggestion is (unfortunately) to start a new game with the latest version of CSD, and, before you start, delete any unused mods from your mods folder and clear the cached databases from your /cache folder.

Gazebo · Jul 11, 2012

cleaner said:
You said you changed Sweden's UA because they were overpowered. Did you mean in general, as in Vanilla as well, or specifically in your mod? If you meant mainly the mod, then why are they stronger there in your opinion? Do they always get 90 Influence when a Diplomatic Unit is used by them?

Thanks a lot.

The reason Sweden was OP with CSD is because the diplomatic units are considered 'great people' because they use a great person ability. Thus, you could generate a messenger in 3-4 turns, 'gift' it to a city-state (without moving it there) and earn 90 influence, whereas other players have to walk the messenger over and only receive 35 influence. See the difference? I laughed when I realized just how awful that balancing was on my end.

cleaner · Jul 11, 2012

Gazebo said:
With regards to cleaner (quite the post!), I'm sorry to hear you are having problems. What version of CSD are you using, and did you update CSD during a save game (or have you been using the same version of CSD throughout the duration of your current game)? Also, keep in mind that files in the mod folder, even if not checked, will, in fact, be loaded into the game's databases, even if they don't appear in the game.

My best suggestion is (unfortunately) to start a new game with the latest version of CSD, and, before you start, delete any unused mods from your mods folder and clear the cached databases from your /cache folder.

It was quite a post indeed. :lol:

I just wanted to make sure I give as much information as possible to hopefully help find the culprit. I'm using the latest v34 of your mod and started a whole new game with it, including deleting the files in the cache folder. I didn't delete the files in the ModUserData folder though. Could that help? The mods that are in the folder but not used don't include any files that are used in any other mods and I also had those in when I just played with the "Shwedagon Paya" wonder and the game worked. Is it possible to delete them though, then delete the cache, activate all mods and load the current savegame fine?

Gazebo said:
The reason Sweden was OP with CSD is because the diplomatic units are considered 'great people' because they use a great person ability. Thus, you could generate a messenger in 3-4 turns, 'gift' it to a city-state (without moving it there) and earn 90 influence, whereas other players have to walk the messenger over and only receive 35 influence. See the difference? I laughed when I realized just how awful that balancing was on my end.

Since Sweden is that overpowered, I guess I might have to change the options for my next game then in that aspect for sure. To bad your programming and 2kGames one ran into a conflict there with how the game's internals work.

Gazebo · Jul 11, 2012

cleaner said:
It was quite a post indeed. I just wanted to make sure I give as much information as possible to hopefully help find the culprit. I'm using the latest v34 of your mod and started a whole new game with it, including deleting the files in the cache folder. I didn't delete the files in the ModUserData folder though. Could that help? The mods that are in the folder but not used don't include any files that are used in any other mods and I also had those in when I just played with the "Shwedagon Paya" wonder and the game worked. Is it possible to delete them though, then delete the cache, activate all mods and load the current savegame fine?

Since Sweden is that overpowered, I guess I might have to change the options for my next game then in that aspect for sure. To bad your programming and 2kGames one ran into a conflict there with how the game's internals work.

As long as you use the same versions of your mods, deleting those mods, deleting the cache and then re-enabling the mods in Civ5 should allow you to load your current save (I've done this numerous times and it has worked well enough). I can't guarantee the compatibility of my mod with those two wonders, though I don't see why they would cause incompatibility.

Generally, crashing during a unit movement is related to unit-pathing or a failed texture/graphic on the game map. I haven't noticed any pathing-related problems with CSD since G&K. One thought to consider: how much ram do you have, and during what era did the crash occur? You might be running out of ram on your computer.

CSD adds no LUA events (code that occurs during gameplay), just SQL and XML (things that are loaded before you start playing), so the chance that something would suddenly crash during a game (because of CSD) can really be limited to a few factors: the AI pathfinding breaks down and crashes (not something I can fix, unfortunately), the AI builds a wonder/building that it wasn't supposed to build (i.e. a minor civ somehow builds a wonder that gives a free diplomatic unit or conquers a city with a wonder it isn't capable of using) or a tech/policy unlock tied to CSD hangs. For the first (pathfinding), it could be related to a war going on (i.e. too many units trying to move through too narrow a choke-point), very tricky terrain (lots of rivers, mountains, water, etc.), etc. For the second (buildings), I've double-checked my mod for errors and all building-related problems were eliminated in v.33. For the last (tech/policy), CSD's techs/policies have been roughly the same for over a year, so there shouldn't be any problems there.

Long story short: if you notice a repeated hang/crash in the same position around the same time, let me know. If the crashes are random, it is probably just be an unfortunate AI problem or (maybe) a hardware-related problem (memory).

If you could link me to the mods you currently use, I can d/l them and take a look myself (also, feel free to post your bugged save game and I can look at that as well). I wish I could be more help, but CSD is actually a pretty simple mod (and I'm but a lowly, amateurish grad student).

Edit: Regarding Sweden, I strongly recommend keeping CSD's change. I haven't seen the AI gift a great person in my tests, but it does prevent abuse of their ability.

cleaner · Jul 11, 2012

Gazebo said:
As long as you use the same versions of your mods, deleting those mods, deleting the cache and then re-enabling the mods in Civ5 should allow you to load your current save (I've done this numerous times and it has worked well enough). I can't guarantee the compatibility of my mod with those two wonders, though I don't see why they would cause incompatibility.

Generally, crashing during a unit movement is related to unit-pathing or a failed texture/graphic on the game map. I haven't noticed any pathing-related problems with CSD since G&K. One thought to consider: how much ram do you have, and during what era did the crash occur? You might be running out of ram on your computer.

CSD adds no LUA events (code that occurs during gameplay), just SQL and XML (things that are loaded before you start playing), so the chance that something would suddenly crash during a game (because of CSD) can really be limited to a few factors: the AI pathfinding breaks down and crashes (not something I can fix, unfortunately), the AI builds a wonder/building that it wasn't supposed to build (i.e. a minor civ somehow builds a wonder that gives a free diplomatic unit or conquers a city with a wonder it isn't capable of using) or a tech/policy unlock tied to CSD hangs. For the first (pathfinding), it could be related to a war going on (i.e. too many units trying to move through too narrow a choke-point), very tricky terrain (lots of rivers, mountains, water, etc.), etc. For the second (buildings), I've double-checked my mod for errors and all building-related problems were eliminated in v.33. For the last (tech/policy), CSD's techs/policies have been roughly the same for over a year, so there shouldn't be any problems there.

Long story short: if you notice a repeated hang/crash in the same position around the same time, let me know. If the crashes are random, it is probably just be an unfortunate AI problem or (maybe) a hardware-related problem (memory).

If you could link me to the mods you currently use, I can d/l them and take a look myself (also, feel free to post your bugged save game and I can look at that as well). I wish I could be more help, but CSD is actually a pretty simple mod (and I'm but a lowly, amateurish grad student).

Edit: Regarding Sweden, I strongly recommend keeping CSD's change. I haven't seen the AI gift a great person in my tests, but it does prevent abuse of their ability.

Thanks for the explanation of how the mod and internals of the game work.

I will take your advice about Sweden.

PS: I have 4GB Ram and a GTX 570 GPU with 1.5GB on it. Using Windows 7.

Gazebo · Jul 12, 2012

Your hardware seems fine. I'll look into these mods this weekend and let you know if I uncover anything. No worries about the troubleshooting- helps me improve CSD and learn more about mod compatibility.

Also, as a note, I am currently working on v35 which, among other things, will give an option to remove gold gifting from the game completely.

To all who follow this thread, make sure to upvote CSD on the steam workshop! I don't want to fall off the first page...

Pnutmaster · Jul 12, 2012

Gazebo, was compatibility for the NiGHTS mod ever implemented? I'm one of the deluded who prefer that to playing Civ V with the G&K expansion.

cleaner · Jul 12, 2012

Gazebo said:
Your hardware seems fine. I'll look into these mods this weekend and let you know if I uncover anything. No worries about the troubleshooting- helps me improve CSD and learn more about mod compatibility.

Also, as a note, I am currently working on v35 which, among other things, will give an option to remove gold gifting from the game completely.

To all who follow this thread, make sure to upvote CSD on the steam workshop! I don't want to fall off the first page...

Thanks once again for the effort in finding the potential error.

I'll be on my way to the workshop to upvote.

glider1 · Jul 13, 2012

Pnutmaster said:
Gazebo, was compatibility for the NiGHTS mod ever implemented? I'm one of the deluded who prefer that to playing Civ V with the G&K expansion.

Your preference to play this way is completely valid. The only ones who would be deluded are them that would judge you for it.

Cheers

Pnutmaster · Jul 13, 2012

Hahaha, all in good fun. I could not play Civ V for more than an hour before installing NiGHTS. However, I still find myself ignoring city states for the most part. The Diplomacy Mod would fill that hole left by vanilla

Gazebo · Jul 14, 2012

Pnutmaster said:
Gazebo, was compatibility for the NiGHTS mod ever implemented? I'm one of the deluded who prefer that to playing Civ V with the G&K expansion.

I guess it could be. Not sure why it wouldn't work. I haven't used NiGHTS since it came out ages ago, but I've made pretty much every part of my mod 'modular' except for the units and buildings, which are essential. I'll take a look in the next few days- if its not too much work (and there is general interest in the project), I'll give it a go.
G

cleaner · Jul 30, 2012

Hello Gazebo! While playing now I realized that one of the Enhances for ones Religion is that you get 50 Faith whenever you expand a Great Person. I haven't tried it yet, but that would also mean whenever you use a diplomatic unit you get 50 Faith, wouldn't it?

Lord Proteus · Jul 31, 2012

Why Trapping allow the School of Scribes? Wouldnt Writing make more sense?

thadian · Jul 31, 2012

its less about making sense and more about balance. There needs to be multiple paths to science and this build kind of allows for that. otherwise, writing and education beeline defines the entire early game.

Lord Proteus · Jul 31, 2012

Eh, writing isnt hard to get. Everyone needs it anyway.

Gazebo · Aug 3, 2012

cleaner said:
Hello Gazebo! While playing now I realized that one of the Enhances for ones Religion is that you get 50 Faith whenever you expand a Great Person. I haven't tried it yet, but that would also mean whenever you use a diplomatic unit you get 50 Faith, wouldn't it?

Indeed it does. I'm not sure I want to mess with this, at it is fairly specific (you have to found a religion and choose this as one of your perks instead of something else). I might reduce it down to 35-40, but, as it stands, the bonus wasn't all that compelling to begin with in vanilla G&K. CSD makes it much more useful for diplomatically-religious civs to adopt this.

Why Trapping allow the School of Scribes? Wouldnt Writing make more sense?

It is for balance (Trapping is not terribly compelling unless you have a nearby camp or want to rush archers, which is rare) and for historical logic (you need skins for vellum to make ancient, classic and medieval parchments). Made sense to me. Also, I tried, where possible, to have the unit and building of an era on different techs to force players to have a wider technological spread.

City State Diplomacy Mod (Updated)

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