[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

There are many ways they could represent chinampas though, it doesn't have to be like in Civ V. They could also be placed on floodplains tiles for example, if they were added on GS.

They were solely built on lakes though.

Speaking of additions to GS, I think the Baray would have made a good Dam replacement for the Khmer.

Too bad the new Civs won't have anything to do with the expansion mechanics because I think a Vietnam Water puppet theater improvement would have been cool by building it on a floodplains tile when flooded. At least that's how the tradition got started.

 

[VermelhoRed]

They were solely built on lakes though.

Yes but tiles are abstractions. For all we know the floodplains tiles actually contain multiple lakes that aren't large enough to appear as a full lake tile, but are large enough for chinampas.

 

[Navelgazer]

Water Puppet Theatres would be such a cool UB/UI for Vietnam. I lean towards floodplains-based UI because, as a UB, it would basically require that the Theatre District be placed on water, and we already have two civs from that general region (Khmer and Indonesia) themed around water placement.

It's easy to picture it providing Amenities and Culture, but then... that would be pretty similar to the Golf Course, so maybe not.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

They were solely built on lakes though.

Speaking of additions to GS, I think the Baray would have made a good Dam replacement for the Khmer.

Too bad the new Civs won't have anything to do with the expansion mechanics because I think a Vietnam Water puppet theater improvement would have been cool by building it on a floodplains tile when flooded. At least that's how the tradition got started.

Yes but tiles are abstractions. For all we know the floodplains tiles actually contain multiple lakes that aren't large enough to appear as a full lake tile, but are large enough for chinampas.

Thankfully Sukritact did release an aqueduct replacement in his Khmer rework. I agree a dam might have been better but it's still greatly appreciated. Would love it if he could do something similar with the Aztecs and Chinampas.

Water Puppet Theatres would be such a cool UB/UI for Vietnam. I lean towards floodplains-based UI because, as a UB, it would basically require that the Theatre District be placed on water, and we already have two civs from that general region (Khmer and Indonesia) themed around water placement.

It's easy to picture it providing Amenities and Culture, but then... that would be pretty similar to the Golf Course, so maybe not.

I always thought of the water theatre being a building in the water park, replacing the aquarium. Actually, I would love the whole water park district to be reworked into something more universal because I hate that we have ferris wheels in the game, juxtaposed against things like "library," "arena," and "market." There is absolutely nothing ubiquitous about a stupid ferris wheel.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I always thought of the water theatre being a building in the water park, replacing the aquarium. Actually, I would love the whole water park district to be reworked into something more universal because I hate that we have ferris wheels in the game, juxtaposed against things like "library," "arena," and "market." There is absolutely nothing ubiquitous about a stupid ferris wheel.

I'm fine with the way the district works as an entertainment complex on water, plus Ferris wheels built on piers are iconic.
That being said my main gripe is the name "water park." It's not a water park in the sense that I know that a water park is an amusement park filled with many different pools and water rides which that is not.
I just went into the files and renamed them to Amusement Pier.

 

[Navelgazer]

Thankfully Sukritact did release an aqueduct replacement in his Khmer rework. I agree a dam might have been better but it's still greatly appreciated. Would love it if he could do something similar with the Aztecs and Chinampas.

Huh. I agree that visual aquaculture elements would have been nice for Khmer, but I really love their current design, actually. It synergizes in really interesting ways to double down on the need for rivers and build up a tall, faith-monster of an empire, and the Presat is such a strong and individual UB that it truly defines their (admitedly niche) strategy in a way that few if any other UBs can.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Huh. I agree that visual aquaculture elements would have been nice for Khmer, but I really love their current design, actually. It synergizes in really interesting ways to double down on the need for rivers and build up a tall, faith-monster of an empire, and the Presat is such a strong and individual UB that it truly defines their (admitedly niche) strategy in a way that few if any other UBs can.

For the record I do like the Prasat building and the way it works.
Though all I was saying was that a Baray would have made total sense for a Khmer unique infrastructure in the beginning, though I agree with the stepwell and the Roman Bath I'm not sure what they would have done differently.
That being said it would have been nice if they changed up the Grand Baray ability in GS and let Dams at least yield some faith.

 

[DWilson]

I've always thought the Khmer should get a bonus to water infrastructure production- not just aqueducts, but also dams and canals. It would be a small boost, but also tie in well with Grand Barays.

 

[ButSam]

Just an out of the blue guess--but I predict the Babylonians return in Civ 6 as one of the NFP expansion civs. They were influential enough to be a major civ in previous incantations (including Civ 3 where they were my favorite).

There will be 50 playable civs at the end of the NFP game, and certainly Babylon is among the top 50 historical civs. Civ 6 could use another ancient era civilization--currently, each expansion has added 1 ancient era UU (Cree-R&F, Phoenicia-GS). There is precedent to "promote" a city state (Seoul was replaced by Babylon when Korea made a grand entry on the Civ stage).

For Unique Infrastructure/Unique Building, the Babylonians can either have a science-related boost, or a government-related boost (perhaps a unique Government District building, or district itself).

As far as abilities, again a science bonus is one option. Another potential option to shake things up though and keeping with the historical narrative would be to give the Babylonians a unique *government*, available in the ancient era (Tier I governments) most likely. This would be a really cool feature!

Anyway, just my 2 cents...purely speculation at this point. I hope something along these lines does emerge, though!

 

[Sostratus]

I have long wondered if FXS would venture to making a unique government plaza, and what such a district would do. Think of the Mayan +% yield near capital- you could have the concept of boosting all cities within X tiles of this unique district. Or whatever you want.

With Mayans taking up the slot of early science Civ with a unique archer, Babylon would have to be a bit different from its past incarnations featuring the bowman/special walls. Translating their current suzerain bonus of science from great works could be neat, though. A kind of science-culture synergy.

 

[Haig]

I agree that the CS Babylon bonus could be used.

UA: All great works of writing create science. Capital's palace can hold extra great works, and starts with one in place (Hammurabi's code)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

There will be 50 playable civs at the end of the NFP game, and certainly Babylon is among the top 50 historical civs. Civ 6 could use another ancient era civilization--currently, each expansion has added 1 ancient era UU (Cree-R&F, Phoenicia-GS). There is precedent to "promote" a city state (Seoul was replaced by Babylon when Korea made a grand entry on the Civ stage).

Well the Maya just got an ancient era UU. But that doesn't rule out any more.

I have long wondered if FXS would venture to making a unique government plaza, and what such a district would do. Think of the Mayan +% yield near capital- you could have the concept of boosting all cities within X tiles of this unique district. Or whatever you want.

With Mayans taking up the slot of early science Civ with a unique archer, Babylon would have to be a bit different from its past incarnations featuring the bowman/special walls. Translating their current suzerain bonus of science from great works could be neat, though. A kind of science-culture synergy.

None of the new Civs will have anything to do with the Govt. Plaza because these civs will be playable with vanilla.
I have always pictured them getting a unique library that could hold great works of writing.

Also if Hammurabi is the leader they should start the game with the Code of Laws Civic.

 

[Kwami]

I always thought of the water theatre being a building in the water park, replacing the aquarium. Actually, I would love the whole water park district to be reworked into something more universal because I hate that we have ferris wheels in the game, juxtaposed against things like "library," "arena," and "market." There is absolutely nothing ubiquitous about a stupid ferris wheel.

I don't know. Ferris wheels certainly seem to be everywhere. All the big cities are building them. London, Chicago, Paris, Tokyo, Rio, Delhi, Vienna, Dublin, Singapore, ... They're everywhere.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

A couple quick thoughts:

1. While I'm not opposed to the devs pushing the limits of vanilla mechanics, I am already somewhat underwhelmed by the first DLC pack. I really like the more complicated niches civs from R&F and GS fill, and I don't think the devs can ride out more than one season on vanilla mechanics. Also I really, really was looking forward to a massive economic overhaul with corporations, more specialized luxury good uses, and an economic victory. Soooo....

2. Do we think that there is still any chance of content after this season which would introduce an economic victory and associated mechanics? It might not be a full expansion pack, but maybe they could still justify a "large-ish" DLC pack or two.

3. Do we think it is possible that any DLC packs, currently planned or in the future, might introduce civs which require the mechanics introduced in the "modes" contained in the same expack? Especially if the game goes a more modular route and patches prior expack features to also be modes, I could almost see this happening. It would seem the only way they could stick to a season pass model while still making civs that feel mechanically fresh.

I'm fine with the way the district works as an entertainment complex on water, plus Ferris wheels built on piers are iconic..

Yeah, maybe in California lol?

I don't know. Ferris wheels certainly seem to be everywhere. All the big cities are building them. London, Chicago, Paris, Tokyo, Rio, Delhi, Vienna, Dublin, Singapore, ... They're everywhere.

Eh maybe in very large cities, but they still aren't a very ubiquitous waterfront building like a boardwalk or beach. They aren't unique to waterfronts, either, and are far more commonly found nowhere near the ocean. It's just a really dumb building, imo. I didn't sign up for Roller Coaster Tycoon.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

2. Do we think that there is still any chance of content after this season which would introduce an economic victory and associated mechanics? It might not be a full expansion pack, but maybe they could still justify a "large-ish" DLC pack or two.

The way that it was announced, I'm not expecting another expansion or new major mechanics at all. I'll be surprised if they continue to release more content after March as well.

Eh maybe in very large cities, but they still aren't a very ubiquitous waterfront building like a boardwalk or beach. They aren't unique to waterfronts, either, and are far more commonly found nowhere near the ocean. It's just a really dumb building, imo. I didn't sign up for Roller Coaster Tycoon.

Well aquariums and aquatic centers aren't unique to that type of district either. The Ferris wheels are the first iconic thing that most people think of, and look at though, when looking at so called pleasure piers. Well at least the one closest to me in Galveston, TX.
As for a boardwalk building, that's what the whole district is supposed to represent so I don't think there's a need for it.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

The way that it was announced, I'm not expecting another expansion or new major mechanics at all. I'll be surprised if they continue to release more content after March as well.

I think the new adoptions and sales from the first season pack will likely make them consider, if not actually release, a second wave of DLC. Seems that's how it usually goes is the goodwill sustains for one season, then drops off after people are disappointed by the first season and don't buy the second.

Also, I have a hard time believing they will end the series on such a lead-in title like "New Frontier." I'm still waiting for a banging finale title like "Prosperity" or "End Times." Though we might just be left hanging lol.

Well aquariums and aquatic centers aren't unique to that type of district either. The Ferris wheels are the first iconic thing that most people think of, and look at though, when looking at so called pleasure piers. Well at least the one closest to me in Galveston, TX.
As for a boardwalk building, that's what the whole district is supposed to represent so I don't think there's a need for it.

Meh, when I see ferris wheels I think street carnivals. When I see piers that's not what I think of. Might be from growing up inland.

Also, I've never liked ferris wheels, so I admit to some bias.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

A couple quick thoughts:

1. While I'm not opposed to the devs pushing the limits of vanilla mechanics, I am already somewhat underwhelmed by the first DLC pack. I really like the more complicated niches civs from R&F and GS fill, and I don't think the devs can ride out more than one season on vanilla mechanics. Also I really, really was looking forward to a massive economic overhaul with corporations, more specialized luxury good uses, and an economic victory. Soooo....

2. Do we think that there is still any chance of content after this season which would introduce an economic victory and associated mechanics? It might not be a full expansion pack, but maybe they could still justify a "large-ish" DLC pack or two.

3. Do we think it is possible that any DLC packs, currently planned or in the future, might introduce civs which require the mechanics introduced in the "modes" contained in the same expack? Especially if the game goes a more modular route and patches prior expack features to also be modes, I could almost see this happening. It would seem the only way they could stick to a season pass model while still making civs that feel mechanically fresh.



Yeah, maybe in California lol?



Eh maybe in very large cities, but they still aren't a very ubiquitous waterfront building like a boardwalk or beach. They aren't unique to waterfronts, either, and are far more commonly found nowhere near the ocean. It's just a really dumb building, imo. I didn't sign up for Roller Coaster Tycoon.

ferris wheels are most common on the water. see: the london eye, that island in new york city. Piers and ferris wheels go hand in hand

 

[johnlynch13957]

I think the new adoptions and sales from the first season pack will likely make them consider, if not actually release, a second wave of DLC. Seems that's how it usually goes is the goodwill sustains for one season, then drops off after people are disappointed by the first season and don't buy the second.

Also, I have a hard time believing they will end the series on such a lead-in title like "New Frontier." I'm still waiting for a banging finale title like "Prosperity" or "End Times." Though we might just be left hanging lol.

That’s what I believe as well. I can definitely see more content if the New Frontier Pass makes enough money. I didn’t even think of the title, which is a very good point. The recent interview with Anton made it seem as though Firaxis plans on long term support for this game. I also think the game being ported to consoles supports this idea, especially because the new content is being released on all platforms simultaneously.

I’m gonna remain cautiously optimistic that there may be continued support after March, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it went either way.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Also, I have a hard time believing they will end the series on such a lead-in title like "New Frontier." I'm still waiting for a banging finale title like "Prosperity" or "End Times." Though we might just be left hanging lol.

I see the name "New Frontier" as a new way to give out DLC and make this a test run for future games.
I don' know we'll see. I'm assuming once we reach 50 civs they won't include any more and that was the initial goal I had in my mind for Civ 6 anyway.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I see the name "New Frontier" as a new way to give out DLC and make this a test run for future games.
I don' know we'll see. I'm assuming once we reach 50 civs they won't include any more and that was the initial goal I had in my mind for Civ 6 anyway.

It's certainly possible that this was only intended to prime players for whatever the next game is. Although I doubt that game would be Civ 7. Players wouldn't want to reset to ground zero and buy the same few dozen civs all over again without a massive mechanical overhaul, and at least with VI we had Beyond Earth giving us something different to play with for a few years and make us forget that VI was just V all over again. But maybe the next "Beyond Earth" experiment could try to use that release model.

I'm torn. On the one hand, if they are already releasing civs with vanilla mechanics and "matching civs to playstyles," it feels like they are out of ideas and eeking out the last suresells. On the other hand, I've observed that VI is a great foundation for a legacy style game, and we are missing an economic victory, and New Frontier could easily be seen as filler content while they polish out more complicated mechanical additions for future content.

I also just don't feel like the game will be "complete" after New Frontier. The biggest things that stand out to me:

1. If we only get one North American (Maya) and one South American (GC) civ like in previous expacks (Cree/Mapuche, Canada/Inca), then we don't get a western American civ. The Navajo (or maybe the Apache) seem like such a logical fit for the game, and if we have Cahokia it seems fitting for us to get a Pueblo and/or Haida CS. But that can't happen this season if the other six slots are dedicated to other parts of the map.

2. We have Khmer, but no Vietnam/Hanoi, Burma/Pagan, or Siam/Bangkok. I actually think Burma ought to be a civ in its own right alongside Vietnam, and yet we will almost certainly not get both this season. But even if we only got Pagan or Hanoi, that still leaves three very large, influential empires that will likely not all get civ/CS representation in New Frontier. Until we have all three, I don't think SE Asia feels very complete at all when we have Babylon and Akkadia, Ireland and Wales, Swahili and Madagascar, Kanem-Bornu and Nok, so many other empire-dense regions fully fleshed out by city-states while we have nothing but Khmer on the SE Asian Mainland.

(2.5 We also don't have Helsinki or Copenhagen or Vienna as CS's yet, and it would still be nice to see a Lhasa CS, maybe even Yakutsk to give us some Siberia/Sakha representation, or Honolulu or T'ui Tonga to help fill out the Polynesian triangle. Point being not even the city-state list as a whole feels complete yet.)

3. To a much lesser extent (because we already have Preslav and Antioch) Bulgaria deserves a shot, and yet the science slot has already been taken by the Maya and players really want Byzantium. I don't see both Byzantium and Bulgaria happening this season, but it's also one of those regions where--if I take VI's "gap-filling" philosophy literally, which although could be wrong still very much seems to hold true so far--I don't see it being completed this season, but I also don't consider the game feeling "complete" without both civs.

4. To an even lesser extent (because we have Fez and Muscat and Zanzibar added in expansions, not even in the base game), I think Morocco/Berbers/Numidia and Oman/Swahili do a very good job of filling large geographic, cultural gaps on the map. Again, I think the game wouldn't feel very complete without them, but I also don't see both happening this season, although we do stand a solid chance of seeing one or the other.

Tldr; I could easily see a "complete" version of the game having: Navajo/Apache, Vietnam, Burma, Byzantium, Bulgaria, Morocco/Berbers/Numidia, Oman/Swahili, in addition to likely candidates like Portugal, Timurids/Mughals, Assyria/Armenia/Palmyra, Italy. Given how holistic design appeared to be prior to New Frontier, I haven't yet abandoned the notion that the developers have a "full picture" in mind. And, if that be the case, there are just too many gaps on the map with potential for the picture to be "completed" with only five more civs after Ethiopia. I would not be surprised in the slightest if the devs try to stretch out another set of DLC after this season to cram the last few ideas in.