Communitu_79

[Txurce]

The script does a few smart things, but it is hard to tweak, about civs placement.

It first looks at how many land masses it needs to place every player over a suitable start. Then, it distributes the settlers upon the fertility remaining in each land mass. Left on its own, each settler had roughly the same area as the others, which ended up with one or two civs starting together in an isolated small continent.

It looks like you had a huge continent in your game, able to host all players. This should be rare. (Or I didn't understand properly how it works).

What worries me is that I've been on a continent with at least five other civs on every map but one. I don't think I've ever had a run that long. It could be coincidence, but more likely something changed that had an unintended effect here.

 

[tu_79]

What worries me is that I've been on a continent with at least five other civs on every map but one. I don't think I've ever had a run that long. It could be coincidence, but more likely something changed that had an unintended effect here.

Not a coincidence. Communitas script, as I found it, first tries to assign a minimum number of resource tiles to every player. This is called fertility. Then it calculates the area of every land mass. If all players can be placed on the same land mass in a way that every player gets enough resources, then it places everyone in the same continent. If that's not posible, it takes another continent (next bigger land mass). Once it has decided how many continents are going to be inhabited, it distributes them so each one gets roughly the same resources. This is why, if a continent is double the area than the other, there's double the settlers in that continent. If a third land mass was needed, you might had started alone in an isolated continent. Only when all majors have been placed, minors are considered.

What I've done in this release is telling the script to remove more fertility than usual every time a major settler is placed. What I've seen in my tests is that if there are two land masses being inhabited, the smaller land mass gets relativelly more major settlers. Usually I see 5/3. Better distributed, ain't it?
What you are reporting makes me think that the script took just one land mass for all players, since it considers that all can live together. Let me work on it, maybe I can find a way to tell the script to assign more resources to each player so it makes use of more land masses.

 

[Txurce]

Not a coincidence. Communitas script, as I found it, first tries to assign a minimum number of resource tiles to every player. This is called fertility. Then it calculates the area of every land mass. If all players can be placed on the same land mass in a way that every player gets enough resources, then it places everyone in the same continent. If that's not posible, it takes another continent (next bigger land mass). Once it has decided how many continents are going to be inhabited, it distributes them so each one gets roughly the same resources. This is why, if a continent is double the area than the other, there's double the settlers in that continent. If a third land mass was needed, you might had started alone in an isolated continent. Only when all majors have been placed, minors are considered.

What I've done in this release is telling the script to remove more fertility than usual every time a major settler is placed. What I've seen in my tests is that if there are two land masses being inhabited, the smaller land mass gets relativelly more major settlers. Usually I see 5/3. Better distributed, ain't it?
What you are reporting makes me think that the script took just one land mass for all players, since it considers that all can live together. Let me work on it, maybe I can find a way to tell the script to assign more resources to each player so it makes use of more land masses.

To repeat my point, this does not happen with the original Communitas map. I've played way too many games on it to have any doubts.

Additionally, 3 of my last 4 starts with Carthage on the new map have resulted in non-coastal starts. This was not the case in any of the earlier versions of your map.

I think it makes sense that there will be missteps as you crack how to do this. This is one of those periods. Good luck woring through it!

 

[tu_79]

Ok, try this one. The method for changing the fertility is not good. So I just forced a different number of civs in a landmass if it is too high or too low:

 

[ridjack]

Currently about to abandon my first game with this map script; I believe it's on the 1.06 version, so doesn't have the changes of the past couple.

I know you mentioned strategics are "scarce," however I'm hoping what I saw here is either a fluke or fixed in one of your new releases:



There's one tile of 7x Horses and two tiles of 7x Coal in the top middle-ish of that picture. Unless I missed something, that's 21 pre-Oil strategic resources from three tiles on a continent with four Civs. I've been at war with Rome non-stop, and yet I never saw a single Legion for the entirety of this game. Now that we're proceeding into the late game, I have no desire to continue fighting against a warmonger with no strategics save what I can get from wonders. (The upgraded Bowmen UUs could probably handle him indefinitely, frankly; I just don't feel like dealing with it.)

(EDIT: I very much enjoyed the distribution of both major and minor civs, otherwise, and the terrain felt fun and interesting throughout the game. From an n of 1, the complete absence of strategics was my only complaint thus far.)

 

[tu_79]

Currently about to abandon my first game with this map script; I believe it's on the 1.06 version, so doesn't have the changes of the past couple.

I know you mentioned strategics are "scarce," however I'm hoping what I saw here is either a fluke or fixed in one of your new releases:



There's one tile of 7x Horses and two tiles of 7x Coal in the top middle-ish of that picture. Unless I missed something, that's 21 pre-Oil strategic resources from three tiles on a continent with four Civs. I've been at war with Rome non-stop, and yet I never saw a single Legion for the entirety of this game. Now that we're proceeding into the late game, I have no desire to continue fighting against a warmonger with no strategics save what I can get from wonders. (The upgraded Bowmen UUs could probably handle him indefinitely, frankly; I just don't feel like dealing with it.)

(EDIT: I very much enjoyed the distribution of both major and minor civs, otherwise, and the terrain felt fun and interesting throughout the game. From an n of 1, the complete absence of strategics was my only complaint thus far.)

Yes, that's solved in version 1.07. Now you'll only see horses of amount 4, and the rest of 6, distributed evenly in valid terrain.
Use the hotfix version, since it distributes the players evenly between two continents.
I've run now 3 games with Carthage and it seems to be working fine.

 

[Txurce]

Yes, that's solved in version 1.07. Now you'll only see horses of amount 4, and the rest of 6, distributed evenly in valid terrain.
Use the hotfix version, since it distributes the players evenly between two continents.
I've run now 3 games with Carthage and it seems to be working fine.

First game on the coast with 5 on continent.

 

[tu_79]

First game on the coast with 5 on continent.

Ok, if that's solved (hope so), maybe we could get some feeling about the resource and terrain distribution.

Note: My solution was this:

                if iNumCivsOnThisLandmass < 0.35 * self.iNumCivs then
                    iNumCivsOnThisLandmass = Round(0.35 * self.iNumCivs)
                end
                if iNumCivsOnThisLandmass > 0.65 * self.iNumCivs then
                    iNumCivsOnThisLandmass = Round(0.65 * self.iNumCivs)
                end

So, if the bigger continent is big enough to room more than 65% of the players, then just host 65% of the players. And if the lesser continent is so small that less than 35% of the players are going to settle there, then have it to at least 35%. I may increase the numbers further, but this ones seemed ok to me. The usual outcome is 5 civs in the big continent, 3 in the smaller, except if both continents are of similar size, then it is 4/4. Forcing them to be always 4/4 seemed artificial.

Edit. Debugging this part of the code is hell. I can't print the values in the log, so I can't see if the values are what they should be. I almost gave up on this piece until I realized that iNumCivs must begin with self. I sincerely hope to not need to touch this again.

 

[Txurce]

Ok, if that's solved (hope so), maybe we could get some feeling about the resource and terrain distribution.

Note: My solution was this:

                if iNumCivsOnThisLandmass < 0.35 * self.iNumCivs then
                    iNumCivsOnThisLandmass = Round(0.35 * self.iNumCivs)
                end
                if iNumCivsOnThisLandmass > 0.65 * self.iNumCivs then
                    iNumCivsOnThisLandmass = Round(0.65 * self.iNumCivs)
                end

So, if the bigger continent is big enough to room more than 65% of the players, then just host 65% of the players. And if the lesser continent is so small that less than 35% of the players are going to settle there, then have it to at least 35%. I may increase the numbers further, but this ones seemed ok to me. The usual outcome is 5 civs in the big continent, 3 in the smaller, except if both continents are of similar size, then it is 4/4. Forcing them to be always 4/4 seemed artificial.

Edit. Debugging this part of the code is hell. I can't print the values in the log, so I can't see if the values are what they should be. I almost gave up on this piece until I realized that iNumCivs must begin with self. I sincerely hope to not need to touch this again.

I don't even want to think aboyt all the work you're doing, because I'll just feel guilty. For me, 4/4 or 5/3 is preferable to a truly random range.

From a gameplay perspective, the things that are important to me besides that are getting the total resource number about right, and (ideally) having some CS offf shore, as opposed to all on the continents. Others may well feel differently about the last point!

 

[Txurce]

Actually something else — the reason why I liked Communitas in the first place. My sense (clear this map, more vague about prior ones) is that the continents have lost their interesting shapes. The one I'm on is basically a vertical rectangle tilting right. It has two small bays... and none of tose slashes through the middle , long canals, etc. May map also has quite a bit of mountains, but they look realistic, and I personally don't mind it.

 

[tu_79]

Actually something else — the reason why I liked Communitas in the first place. My sense (clear this map, more vague about prior ones) is that the continents have lost their interesting shapes. The one I'm on is basically a vertical rectangle tilting right. It has two small bays... and none of tose slashes through the middle , long canals, etc. May map also has quite a bit of mountains, but they look realistic, and I personally don't mind it.

There are two kinds of scatter. One squizzes the continents, as if you tried to strangle them. The other makes the coasts launch funny branches.

Land scatter can be defined between two values, and decided randomly for each map instance. Coast scatter is static.

The thing with land scatter is that when the value is high, there are no landlocked cities. But too low and you get those blocky continents.
Coast scatter makes the coast look spiky. Too much scatter and the continents look hairy.

The vertical tilting has nothing to do with scatter. That's the vertical rift not working properly sometimes.
I'll give you a second hotfix with increased land scatter, and make fixing vertical rifts my to do for next release.

EDIT. Posted 2nd hotfix.
More scatter, tweaked temperature/rain values to account for the increased scatter.
Changed the way forest spawn. No more all forest concentrated around the equator. Now it forms patches of forests and jungles, with patches of plains and grassland. Makes grassland without features more likely to happen.
Increased water requirement for snow. Increased plough requirement for desert. Makes extreme climates more localized. (Alluvial deserts were too common in the first hotfix).

 

[ridjack]

Hope this continues to improve! I've had a couple games with it now and mostly enjoyed them, but probably going to give this a pass for awhile.

It's looking good, though! I'm looking forward to seeing what it becomes.

 

[azum4roll]

There's a tile of desert forest hill in my current game using Communitas4. Is it supposed to be a thing and does it still appear in your version? It's certainly rare though; I've never seen one.

 

[tu_79]

There's a tile of desert forest hill in my current game using Communitas4. Is it supposed to be a thing and does it still appear in your version? It's certainly rare though; I've never seen one.

It should not happen. Whenever the script tries to place a feature, it calls a function called "IsThisAGoodSpotForAForest()" or something like that. The very first thing this fuction does is exiting the function when the tile is a desert or a snow tile, so it's not posible to place forest, jungle or marsh there. There may be some extra forest placed randomly in other parts of the code that failed to call for the 'allowance' function, but I haven't noticed. If you find any forest over sand or snow in my last release, please report it, and I'll try to find the culprit.

 

[Txurce]

Using the last patch (hotfix 2, right?):

As suggested, the map is divided into 5/3 continents with irregular shapes.

In addition, there are a few good-sized subcontinents available for expansion. I happen to love this. One exasperating but terrific side-effect: serious pirate fleets!

The only quirk: my 3-civ continent has NO horses! One horse tile is on the largest of the subcontinents, reachable by shallow water. The rest are on the largest continent. This is odd — my continent's too big for no horses — so it's worth looking into, but could be a coincidence, and not a problem.

I'm loving this map. A major naval war centered around the uninhabited continent is looming.

 

[tu_79]

Using the last patch (hotfix 2, right?):

As suggested, the map is divided into 5/3 continents with irregular shapes.

In addition, there are a few good-sized subcontinents available for expansion. I happen to love this. One exasperating but terrific side-effect: serious pirate fleets!

The only quirk: my 3-civ continent has NO horses! One horse tile is on the largest of the subcontinents, reachable by shallow water. The rest are on the largest continent. This is odd — my continent's too big for no horses — so it's worth looking into, but could be a coincidence, and not a problem.

I'm loving this map. A major naval war centered around the uninhabited continent is looming.

Hope the horse lack is an oddity. In my tests there's usually horses in all major continents.

 

[Txurce]

Hope the horse lack is an oddity. In my tests there's usually horses in all major continents.

It looked like an oddity, given the size of the continents. I'm still on my first game with it, because I'm enjoying it so much. Have you checked multiple maps, in terms of appropriate land masses? Because if you have and it holds up, I think you're there!

 

[tu_79]

It looked like an oddity, given the size of the continents. I'm still on my first game with it, because I'm enjoying it so much. Have you checked multiple maps, in terms of appropriate land masses? Because if you have and it holds up, I think you're there!

I did. However, I didn't test every option. Just standard settings, continents style.

 

[Txurce]

I did. However, I didn't test every option. Just standard settings, continents style.

That's what I play.

 

[tu_79]

New stuff!

Changelog v. 1.08:
- Increased ice on the poles. Arctic paths now blocked by ice. Logic for ice changed so islands don't get blocked.
- Modified Atlantic curve so Greenland can form.
- Pacific ocean is easier to navigate by sea.
- Tweaked rain and temperatures to account for the changes.
- The circumnavegable rift starts somewhere near 20% of the map height to the poles. Sometimes continents look as if cut in half, but not very often.
- Touched mountain scatter (there were too large mountain regions)

Some pics: