Current v1.13 Development Discussion

[agentxorange]

Establishing embassies was important part in the life of any ruler. Russians, for example, were trying to establish one in China for many years. We have so few non-combat units, why can't we have envoys who can travel criss-cross all over the map establishing embassies and giving a feeling that war is not the only way nations interact?

Embassies were just filler buildings when you had nothing to build in game though. The historical component isn't always important - the question is "is this a good game mechanic or not?".

 

[calad]

New commit:
- Temple of Solomon expires with Banking

Can you tell us reasoning for this? Final Temple of Solomon was sacked by Romans around 0Bc. It would be more logical that metal casting would expire (very Roman tech) it than banking.

 

[Leoreth]

First of all, before that change the ToS expired with Liberalism, an even later tech.

For me, ToS does not simply represent the temple itself, but the role of Jerusalem as a whole, including its rule for the other Abrahamic religions. I deliberately let a wonder that will always be in Jerusalem boost shrine income to make Jerusalem something to fight over, even though your own religion's shrine is located elsewhere. Since the fighting over Jerusalem took place long after the temple had been destroyed, it wouldn't make sense to have it expire so early.

The reason why I made it expire earlier is to nerf the Arabs. I think citis suggested Banking in particular, which makes sense because it's a late medieval tech that roughly coincides with Arab decline, and also includes a building that can help you recoup some of the lost gold over time.

 

[citis]

Can you tell us reasoning for this? Final Temple of Solomon was sacked by Romans around 0Bc. It would be more logical that metal casting would expire (very Roman tech) it than banking.

I proposed this change so that the shrine income couldn't accumulate even further with the +50% of a bank. It is too overpowered to control a city that has +40 shrine income with +100% modifier (market+grocer+bank). Now it is +40 with +50%(market+grocer) or +20 with +100% modifier.

Banking is an essential tech (it is required to discover rifles), so it actually nerfs the ToS by 50% in renaiscance and later eras which is pretty good.

 

[youtien]

I suspended my epic/monarch Russian 600 AD game. Leoreth did well in tech balance, I did everything and my tech didn't exceed the time too much, I managed to steal rifling & military tradition & science & chemistry from Prussia then I finally become superpower.

 

[Biso]

I've always thought it quite strange that America spawns exactly the same spot in eastern coast of North America no matter what the historical context(in games) is.
For example, in a game I played England was gone, so Eastern coast was not even settled until late 18th century. But as the timeline, America was spawned in 1774 at that same spot.
I think it would be more natural to make the spawning area different each time at most flourishing and well established region in both Americas-which makes it impossible to follow the popular strategy in which barricading America in the middle part of North America long before it spawned, crushing it right after 10 turns.

 

[agentxorange]

They aren't really "spawn" areas per say; civs spawn in their core and flip the cities in their flip zone. You can't change that dynamically based on the game conditions.

 

[youtien]

N.Am is not so empty anymore. Apart from Americans, Mexico and Canada also flips a large area, and there are congresses that would let AI demand their historical areas from you, you have to struggle for keeping them.

 

[Biso]

I mean, if the eastern coast is empty but America is spawned,
it seems Americans are kinda advanced version of native Americans, not derived from colonial presence.
I suggest that make the whole US territory as Americans' historical core-which could potentially become an independence centre when spawning happens, if it's occupied by European civs and established enough.
This kind of randomness would make games more dynamic.

 

[Pedersen]

With the new culture growth mechanics, Vikings need the same twist as the Polynesians (i.e. no penalities for oceans) - otherwise their goal of settling America by island-jumping the ocean squares Ireland->Iceland->Newfoundland isn't feasible.

 

[Leoreth]

Really? They only need the second ring.

 

[Julius Americus]

So I've never been one to post on forums like these, but with the exciting new additions to Dawn of Civ I just had to.

First off I'd like to thank Leoreth directly. You've built something really incredible and unique here, that has really enhanced and supplemented my understanding of history. Your grasp of the flow and nuances of human civilization is impressive to say the least. So thank you. So much.

I'd also like to suggest a couple of things I've discovered on my run-throughs of the latest additions to the mod-mod.

First - anyone else have the game constantly crashing at a certain save point for no reason and beyond recovery? I'm getting pretty burned out on a really great game I'm invested in that stops working just as I get rifling or whatever.

Second - The mongols seem to do ahistoric damage to the Russians in almost every game I play. Yes, I know the Golden Horde did a number on Russian development for generations, but the Russian states and then state managed to survive and eventually thrive.

Third - This is an addition I've always thought would be great and which I've seen implemented in part through the new "crusade" mechanism of the apostolic palace, but which could function more historically. In addition to the apostolic palace mechanism, it would be interesting if, say, first the French and the Germans, and then the English, and then the Venetians (Italians) each got a small force deployed to the near east and, for the Venetians, the Hellespont to replicate the various crusades at their various points in history. Sort of the way AI Romans, Greeks, and Mongols get automatic invasion armies to simulate the Alexanders and Trajans and Ghengis' of history.

Fourth - I haven't gotten to this point in history yet (game crashes, see above) but I was always a little disappointed with the way Rhye approached Nuclear weapons, specifically ICMBs. One - no AI ever built them. Two - AIs that built tactical nukes used them to destroy the nearest at-war city they could find - even if it was an independent city with no strategic value whatsoever. Samarqand would get turned into a radioactive hellscape by five nuclear devices any time the Russians got the bomb.
I don't know the complexities of programming mod-mods, but how feasible would it be to add ICBMs back into the game, and also have the AI reserve their use on targets that were near their level in the "scoring"? So, for example, if the US is the most powerful country in the world in AD 1955 at a score of 2052, and Germany is the second most powerful at 1834 and the French the third at 1743, the US would be programmed only to use ICBMs if at war with Germany or France. And the possession of ICBMs by the other side would enormously reduce the willingness to engage in war.

These are my nerdy civ 4 historical fantasies. Not sure how realistic they are. Again, thank you Leoreth for all of your hard and diligent work.

 

[67brancheswhoa]

The Seljuks still drive out non-Islam religions upon conquest. Not sure whether this is intentional or not.

It is.

But the Seljuks also conquer Anatolia most of the time (Konya/Angora and Trabzon). Also, the new update also gives them a higher probability of targeting Al-Quds. Should the Christian religions really be removed from those cities?

 

[Leoreth]

So I've never been one to post on forums like these, but with the exciting new additions to Dawn of Civ I just had to.

First off I'd like to thank Leoreth directly. You've built something really incredible and unique here, that has really enhanced and supplemented my understanding of history. Your grasp of the flow and nuances of human civilization is impressive to say the least. So thank you. So much.

Thanks, I appreciate the words.

I don't think I'm that knowledgeable (you should find the real history buffs on this board!), but I try to do the best I can with what the game offers me.

I'd also like to suggest a couple of things I've discovered on my run-throughs of the latest additions to the mod-mod.

First - anyone else have the game constantly crashing at a certain save point for no reason and beyond recovery? I'm getting pretty burned out on a really great game I'm invested in that stops working just as I get rifling or whatever.

I know, I'm currently working through a saved game that exhibits that sort of crash to track down the reason. I hope there is a single cause behind all of these crashes and that I can get it fixed soon.

Second - The mongols seem to do ahistoric damage to the Russians in almost every game I play. Yes, I know the Golden Horde did a number on Russian development for generations, but the Russian states and then state managed to survive and eventually thrive.

Really? I haven't actually paid that much attention to Russia in that time period, but usually they come out quite strong in later stages in the game. Which even if Russia suffers a lot in the late middle ages seems to be a historical development.

Third - This is an addition I've always thought would be great and which I've seen implemented in part through the new "crusade" mechanism of the apostolic palace, but which could function more historically. In addition to the apostolic palace mechanism, it would be interesting if, say, first the French and the Germans, and then the English, and then the Venetians (Italians) each got a small force deployed to the near east and, for the Venetians, the Hellespont to replicate the various crusades at their various points in history. Sort of the way AI Romans, Greeks, and Mongols get automatic invasion armies to simulate the Alexanders and Trajans and Ghengis' of history.

I have thought about similar things, but I don't think a comparison with the already existing conqueror events is justified. Those were occasions where the conquerors established empires that had a huge and lasting impact on the history of the affected regions. I think the influence of the Crusades on the Middle East is generally overstated by modern Western and Middle Eastern perspective, while contemporary Muslims had other things to worry about.

Fourth - I haven't gotten to this point in history yet (game crashes, see above) but I was always a little disappointed with the way Rhye approached Nuclear weapons, specifically ICMBs. One - no AI ever built them. Two - AIs that built tactical nukes used them to destroy the nearest at-war city they could find - even if it was an independent city with no strategic value whatsoever. Samarqand would get turned into a radioactive hellscape by five nuclear devices any time the Russians got the bomb.
I don't know the complexities of programming mod-mods, but how feasible would it be to add ICBMs back into the game, and also have the AI reserve their use on targets that were near their level in the "scoring"? So, for example, if the US is the most powerful country in the world in AD 1955 at a score of 2052, and Germany is the second most powerful at 1834 and the French the third at 1743, the US would be programmed only to use ICBMs if at war with Germany or France. And the possession of ICBMs by the other side would enormously reduce the willingness to engage in war.

These are my nerdy civ 4 historical fantasies. Not sure how realistic they are. Again, thank you Leoreth for all of your hard and diligent work.

Yes, there is a problem with the AI and its use of nuclear weapons. It is programmed to only use them in all out wars, but it doesn't discriminate with the targets as soon as that stage is reached, which causes independent cities to get hit a lot.

I'd like a more intricate mechanism for nuclear weapons in general, where either party only uses them if the other party has used them first or if it is in a desperate situation. Independent cities should probably become invalid targets in general.

 

[Shadow Warlord]

Really? I haven't actually paid that much attention to Russia in that time period, but usually they come out quite strong in later stages in the game. Which even if Russia suffers a lot in the late middle ages seems to be a historical development.


I have thought about similar things, but I don't think a comparison with the already existing conqueror events is justified. Those were occasions where the conquerors established empires that had a huge and lasting impact on the history of the affected regions. I think the influence of the Crusades on the Middle East is generally overstated by modern Western and Middle Eastern perspective, while contemporary Muslims had other things to worry about.

For Russia, i think it's ok for them to be conquered by the Mongols, thus representing the Golden Horde and their vassals. They usually don't take too long to respawn with Mongolia's stability.

But for Russia's up, i think it could be amended. I notice it will affect the mongols, thus hampering their invasion. As history shows us, the cold didn't really stop the Mongols and the world was actually a little warmer during that time than during Napoleon and Hitler (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period)

So perhaps their UP could only take effect once Russia enters the Renaissance?

As for the crusades, it was at least economically important to the west because it gave the crusaders (and by extension, venice & genoa) resources such as spices and silk, which the Muslims/Byzantium had a monopoly on. After the crusaders left and the Mamluks/Ottomans took over, Europe began searching for an alternate route to reach India and China, thus colonization & exploration.

However, you may want to look at the dynamic names for Jerusalem. I've tried conquering it with France and the city name stays Al-Quds.

 

[Chep]

The Mongols counter the Russian UP pretty well, I'd say, maybe they could get 1 more unit in their conqueror-stacks.

Also Russia does need that UP early for those annoying hordes of Barbarian Horse Archers and in case Byzantium/Turkey declare war on them early on.

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The Dutch need some nerfs:

After I took Amsterdam in 1640 (basically as soon as possible) I made peace with the Dutch who then had 2 cities somewhere in the world.

In 1750 I decide I have had enough of them and the risk of those annoying congresses costing me my UHV is too high, so the Dutch have to go, I gift them a tech only to see their stability go from shaky too stable despite them expanding to now 6 cities allover the world - without a single one in their core

Spoiler :

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During my game with France I noticed of how little use UB & UU are. The UB would be a lot better with an artist slot instead of the 25% culture (and it comes almost too late for UHV 1 anyway, I managed to get its tech via Liberalism in 1600AD), the UU might be useful for those fights between 1700 & 1800 AD, if you still need to fight.

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Don't forget you wanted to give the Indonesians a better UP (better trade-route-modifiers).

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From 600 AD until almost 1600 AD I was Catholic as France and yet I barely noticed any votes from the Apostolic Palace in that time. And when there were some I had no idea what those do, sure usually I had a vague idea of what they might do, but some additional information in-game on those choices would be really nice.

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Please change the first Aztec UHV to "make the city reach size 15-17 by 1520". I had Paris at size 17 in 1450 in my French game, despite cottaging every tile and it only working 2 of the 3 food resources in its BFC and severe whipping until 1000AD.

 

[Leoreth]

But the Seljuks also conquer Anatolia most of the time (Konya/Angora and Trabzon). Also, the new update also gives them a higher probability of targeting Al-Quds. Should the Christian religions really be removed from those cities?

Unless a more nuanced religion system is implemented (which is on the agenda), it will have to do.

As for the crusades, it was at least economically important to the west because it gave the crusaders (and by extension, venice & genoa) resources such as spices and silk, which the Muslims/Byzantium had a monopoly on. After the crusaders left and the Mamluks/Ottomans took over, Europe began searching for an alternate route to reach India and China, thus colonization & exploration.

I would say that the collapse of the Mongol Empire and the political fracturing of the Muslim world played a much more significant role. It's not as if the Ottomans were interested in stifling trade from Europe along the silk route, in fact their decline in the later centuries of the Ottoman Empire can probably in part be attributed to the loss of valuable trade routes to Europeans.

Don't forget you wanted to give the Indonesians a better UP (better trade-route-modifiers).

I don't remember that.

 

[Chep]

I don't remember that.

well it has been a while since that was the topic of discussion, but the idea was yours:

Just a thought: the current Indonesian UP might be cool, but probably isn't that effective over an entire game. Maybe the old overseas bonus should become the Indonesian UP instead?

(I think there were more posts in that direction in some of the other threads, but thats the initial one from you)

any comments concerning the other points I brought up?

 

[Leoreth]

Okay quick points:
- Dutch: I don't think they need a nerf other than reduced tech speed, which is in the pipeline somewhere
- French UB: no real opinion on that
- AP: a mouse over text for resolutions are probably a good idea if that's possible, but you know me and where that kind of feature ends up in the priority queue
- Aztec UHV: I think explicit population reqs are dumb for city goals

 

[Leoreth]

By the way, I'm kind of busy in RL right now, so don't expect major fixes or new content until somewhere next week.

I know I'm getting somewhat terse when I'm frustrated by not getting more stuff done, so please be understanding when that happens

Fixing the crash is still first priority.