Death of Conventional Strategies? [11/18 Patch Notes]

[Beef Hammer]

Meh I like hearing all the complaints about not being able to save SP or unit promotions. I already never did either as I saw them as exploits that made the game much easier than i liked.

I don't see the point of holding on to unit promotions anyway, other than the insta-heal, which I also don't use because I think it's overpowered.

And holding on to SP just seemed way too OP. Being able to save up a bunch and then blow several down a higher tree also seems very unrealistic, to me.

Guess I already was making the game harder for me for MY enjoyment, so anyone that has been complaining that game is too easy now, should really welcome these changes and give them a shot.

 

[neilkaz]

I see a few people here talking about nerfing puppets and to me that is very scary.

What really needs a patch is that the courthouse takes too long to build and that 5 GPT maintainance is way too much.

Just my opinion .. neilkaz ..

 

[scytheavatar]

Meh I like hearing all the complaints about not being able to save SP or unit promotions. I already never did either as I saw them as exploits that made the game much easier than i liked.

I don't see the point of holding on to unit promotions anyway, other than the insta-heal, which I also don't use because I think it's overpowered.

And holding on to SP just seemed way too OP. Being able to save up a bunch and then blow several down a higher tree also seems very unrealistic, to me.

Guess I already was making the game harder for me for MY enjoyment, so anyone that has been complaining that game is too easy now, should really welcome these changes and give them a shot.

I fail to see how holding on to SP is overpowered, when you are limiting your early game by doing so.

 

[alpaca]

I see a few people here talking about nerfing puppets and to me that is very scary.

What really needs a patch is that the courthouse takes too long to build and that 5 GPT maintainance is way too much.

Just my opinion .. neilkaz ..

To be honest the small benefit from annexing isn't usually even worth the cost of having more expensive social policies. There needs to be more of an incentive to annex it in order to counter-balance this. Without making conquered cities stronger than self-founded (which would be crazy in my opinion) you have to nerf puppets.

 

[danerman73]

Overall I like the changes. I agree the SP changes do cause many to have an early strategy of rapid expansion and the outright avoidance of culture early in the game so that the policies they want are cheaper later in the game. One way I could see changing this is to have a prerequisite number of social policies taken from earlier trees to open the later trees. Something like 3 policies to open piety, 5 to open commerce and patronage, 7 to open rationalism and freedom, and 9 to open autocracy and order. The numbers would need to be played with to find the right balance but I think this would bring the balance of the game back to wanting early culture instead of avoiding it.

 

[Txurce]

To be honest the small benefit from annexing isn't usually even worth the cost of having more expensive social policies. There needs to be more of an incentive to annex it in order to counter-balance this. Without making conquered cities stronger than self-founded (which would be crazy in my opinion) you have to nerf puppets.

This is dead on. I pretty much only annex because it's more fun for me, but there is a price paid short term in happiness and long term in SPs.

 

[Bibor]

* Science building track adjustments (cost, specialist slots, GP Points, etc). (Added 11/18)

Good.

* Amount of damage caused during naval combat increased. (Added 11/18)

Good. Compared to land-based units, ships could take too much punishment.

* Melee horse units combat value lowered, and now receive a penalty when attacking cities. (Added 11/18)

Good and expected. Cavalry units now share the niche with tanks: lords of the open terrain.

* Lowered bonuses received from Maritime city-states. (Added 11/18)

Good and expected. Granting Sky Hydroponics from turn 50 was a really bad idea.

* Removed maintenance from defensive buildings. (Added 11/18)

Good. Players should not be additionaly penalized for investing into static defenses.

* Multiple unit upgrade track adjustments. Most (but not all) units now have a full upgrade path from start to finish. (Added 11/18)

Good. It was kind of awkward that Crossbows and Cavalry were a dead-end, while a warrior and a catapult were not.

* Open terrain penalty lowered. (Added 11/18)

Good. Moving to open terrain should be hazardous but not an instant suicide.

* Policies must be selected the turn they are earned. (Added 11/18)

Good and Expected. Culture points are supposed to be the "beakers of social advances", while total culture represents how socially advanced your empire is. They should make the initial policies stronger however, because many civilizations simply won't see them (and investing into culture that early should be rewarded more). Being able to implement 3-5 policies as soon as you hit industrial era was a really bad design.

* Promotions must be selected the turn they are earned. If it’s as a result of combat, then the beginning of the next turn. (Added 11/18)

Makes sense both in terms of realism and in terms of gameplay balance. Divides your army into skirmishers and experienced troops. Instant heals provide skirmishers with more shelf life, while going the "slow and safe" way enables units to reach those really interesting level 4+ upgrades.

***

I hope these are just the first batch of changes, however. There are numerous issues not covered by these.

 

[scytheavatar]

Good and Expected. Culture points are supposed to be the "beakers of social advances", while total culture represents how socially advanced your empire is. They should make the initial policies stronger however, because many civilizations simply won't see them (and investing into culture that early should be rewarded more). Being able to implement 3-5 policies as soon as you hit industrial era was a really bad design.

Something I don't understand: in real life why would a culturally advanced country like China be more socially advanced than a less culturally advanced country like South Korea? What's the relationship between culture and the amount of policies your government wants to implement? Those people complaining that storing policies is not realistic really need to wonder whether the system is meant to be realistic in the first place..... then there's the part of why you can't change your social policies like you can in real life, or in the previous civ games. Being able to change your social polices would be a great change as it will make the system much more flexible. But of course then the one time bonuses like scientific revolution will have to be changed....

 

[Bibor]

Something I don't understand: in real life why would a culturally advanced country like China be more socially advanced than a less culturally advanced country like South Korea? What's the relationship between culture and the amount of policies your government wants to implement? Those people complaining that storing policies is not realistic really need to wonder whether the system is meant to be realistic in the first place..... then there's the part of why you can't change your social policies like you can in real life, or in the previous civ games. Being able to change your social polices would be a great change as it will make the system much more flexible. But of course then the one time bonuses like scientific revolution will have to be changed....

You can change social policies. Autocracy and Rationalism have mutually exclusive policy trees.

Also, who says South Korea is socially richer than China? Micromanaging 1.3 billion and 50 million people requires different approaches to same problems. China probably has as much construction workers as South Korea has citizens. Just in comparison, its much easier to discipline a squad of 10 people then a brigade of 10.000. Even if they are all decent guys.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Good and Expected. Culture points are supposed to be the "beakers of social advances", while total culture represents how socially advanced your empire is. They should make the initial policies stronger however, because many civilizations simply won't see them (and investing into culture that early should be rewarded more). Being able to implement 3-5 policies as soon as you hit industrial era was a really bad design.

Nobody ever modeled this on a cost/benefit basis. You're making a statement in ignorance. It's just as easy and accurate to say that it took away a strategic option in the game without basis. Did anyone ever compare having dozens to hundreds of turns w/o honor, liberty, or piety to the benefits of finally getting say a couple order policies? I've not seen it. Please direct me, or accept that your statement (and this change in general) has no basis.

The lack of basis is a consistent problem dating back to civ IV and probably older in firaxis patch priority/philosophy. It led to stupidity like 4x galley spawn rates while not fixing confirmed control bugs. It led to taking away the highly-obscure hammer overflow but leaving the apostolic palace untouched. Now, it's leading to removing an option of SP while leaving things like the governor deliberately starving away city pop untouched.

I like most of the patch changes, but only ones that were done for an objective, proven reason. No cost/benefit disparity shown, no justification for taking away a strategy choice.

 

[E66man]

Those people complaining that storing policies is not realistic really need to wonder whether the system is meant to be realistic in the first place.....

That's what I said before when I mentioned you can prove nearly any point with realism. I think most people might agree that the world went through more societal changes in the 20th century than during any other previous 100-year period, so why is it not 'real' to have the equivalent in Civ V? It is quite real that radical tech changes can also lead to radical social changes. Likewise, forcing policy spending implies that every pre-classical society has to go through the exact same limited pool of social changes. I'm not sure this is valid either but you can possibly make a case for it.

 

[elthrasher]

Nobody ever modeled this on a cost/benefit basis. You're making a statement in ignorance. It's just as easy and accurate to say that it took away a strategic option in the game without basis. Did anyone ever compare having dozens to hundreds of turns w/o honor, liberty, or piety to the benefits of finally getting say a couple order policies? I've not seen it. Please direct me, or accept that your statement (and this change in general) has no basis.

That sounds like work. However, anecdotal evidence: I had been doing the rationalism slingshot to get early riflemen. In my latest game, I decided to buy every social policy as soon as it was available. I'm only about 100 turns in but predictably I'm not on track to have riflemen as soon, but otherwise am in a more dominant position, having eliminated two rivals and crippled a third.

I do think the two free techs in rationalism is too strong, considering it is easy to have two scientists by then for a total of four free techs all at once, but I'd rather see that patched to one free tech (or maybe two cheapest for free?) and let me save up my policies if I want. That adds more game variety.

 

[Bibor]

I like most of the patch changes, but only ones that were done for an objective, proven reason. No cost/benefit disparity shown, no justification for taking away a strategy choice.

Okay, lets take a different approach. Lets say you could save up city growth points. That you could keep your city at pop 5 for a very long time and then just burn them all up in one turn and grow your city instantly to pop 20.

Then Firaxis removes this option. Would you call it a strategy choice taken away? Obviously you would. Even if the stated option makes no sense at all.

Accumulating culture points was a dumb idea in the first place. I'd rather had some other strategical option instead. But I don't mind this one gone.

The issue is not that they removed the accumulation of culture points. We need more non-military options in general.

 

[Buccaneer]

I fail to see how holding on to SP is overpowered, when you are limiting your early game by doing so.

Limiting? What do you consider early game? You can get three good SPs at once, like Patronage/Philanthropy/Aesthetics, 1500-1700bc (around turn 60), which makes it overpowered. I also played a game where I didn't something as overpowered and got them one at a time, e.g. Tradition, then Aristocracry, Patronage, etc. and found the results similar - a little extra boost in Wonders production.

 

[jorissimo]

I have an idea, maybe it's been said before, if so, let me know. What if you wouldn't generate any new culture before adopting an available policy? That way you can postpone taking it for like 3 turns if you're really close to a new era, but if you would postpone it for a longer time, it would cost you a lot. This would force you to take some early game policies, and still keep some strategic choice in the game.

 

[Jester Fool]

snip

I am actually waiting for you to post more Starcraft 2 Youtube videos - love them and I don't even have Starcraft 2. I like the CiV videos as well, but you're right - CiV is best in small doses. I would rather watch you play than play myself. I play Immortal level (Augustus Caesar EVERY game) but I don't have the gift of gab like you do (love the commentary - shenanigans indeed!)

 

[anti_strunt]

To be honest the small benefit from annexing isn't usually even worth the cost of having more expensive social policies. There needs to be more of an incentive to annex it in order to counter-balance this. Without making conquered cities stronger than self-founded (which would be crazy in my opinion) you have to nerf puppets.

Bigger differences between grown and newly-founded cities would help, too. But that's a more fundamental problem, of course...

 

[Paradigne]

I love the way people get jumped for saying they have no problem with the SP change

 

[BomberEscort]

I have an idea, maybe it's been said before, if so, let me know. What if you wouldn't generate any new culture before adopting an available policy? That way you can postpone taking it for like 3 turns if you're really close to a new era, but if you would postpone it for a longer time, it would cost you a lot. This would force you to take some early game policies, and still keep some strategic choice in the game.

This idea has merit and would be a good compromise. If you want to wait, you don't gain any culture while you do.

Also, I think saving culture points will be negated by people who constantly shift-Enter the end of their turn. I do this with the Great Library free tech. If I'm two turns away from the tech I want (because I'm researching another currently), I force the end of turn until I'm ready to select it. 'Choose Free Tech' stays there and end turn never shows, but if needed you can select other notifications by using the side bar (as they scroll on the right of your screen from top to bottom).

Something tells me Firaxis will not be smart enough to catch this (as they can't remove force end turn functionality) and you'll be able to force end turn, accumulate culture, and still choose the policies you want. In essence, there will be no change from how it is now, except for the added requirement to force the end of your turn...

 

[Txurce]

I have an idea, maybe it's been said before, if so, let me know. What if you wouldn't generate any new culture before adopting an available policy? That way you can postpone taking it for like 3 turns if you're really close to a new era, but if you would postpone it for a longer time, it would cost you a lot. This would force you to take some early game policies, and still keep some strategic choice in the game.

Excellent idea. It gives a player a tough choice - that is, a good one - and makes sense from an immersive aspect, since the culture would still be "evolving" toward a SP... just taking longer to get there.