Dorians how did they look like?
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Rambuchan
The Funky President
The Spartans, Corinthians, Cretans (immediately after the fall of Mycenae) and Argives were Dorians. The three famous Dorian commanders who conquered the Peloponnese were Temenos, Aristodemus and Cresphontes. So finding reliable images of any of these should do the trick. How one could be sure those images are reliable is quite a thing though!
Also - although the Dorians were considered to be a different race from the Ionians, or indeed the Pelasgians, I don't think they really looked all that different.
Moreover, notions of racial difference were very much different to what we have today. It was more a cultural and religious concern than anything to do with a person's appearance.
Also - although the Dorians were considered to be a different race from the Ionians, or indeed the Pelasgians, I don't think they really looked all that different.
Moreover, notions of racial difference were very much different to what we have today. It was more a cultural and religious concern than anything to do with a person's appearance.
Jerry'sGoldfish
Emperor
of ocurse, and they were rather northern in aspect, in contrast to the mixed aspect of the ionians or the southerner aspect of the pelasgians...the same thing happened in the italian peninsula...different waves of invaders from the north, also note that much later thracians were present in the anatolian peninsula too, just to invoke their migration route..and dorians used iron !
Jerry'sGoldfish
Emperor
i think that there are some osprey books about mycene warriors, and there must be at leats three of them (a page consacrated to them)...
here is a picture from troia, culd they be so different - the answer is yes - they had iron, and especially in the carpathians there is lot of iron, plenty of iron, gold, silver, copper, tin, and so on, dorians are actually one of the last waves of migrators from these regions. and those regions beyond the danube are part of the natural fortress of the carpathian basin and there is a strong neolithic culture; i might even suspect, and i think there is evidence of metal used earlier than officialy believed (i have read about these things but i have forgotten since i am specialised in the middle ages); for example in transsylvania there are lots of hills reshaped to look like pyramids, lots of them from small - to giant, later occupation took place on top of such ensembles....i could talk hours about these things - but the idea is that strong culture florished around the danube area, and that culture was in open conflict with later waves coming from the steppes - so dacians and getai are actually early scythians and later sarmatian waves, the first to avoid the carpathians and only later settling there over inhabitans, and the dacians - recorded late in history seem to have been sarmatians that divided the land with celts - the boii, before these there have been other waves that settled the land and who fought back other waves of invaders - like in greece; so the point is that there were high cultures like the pelasgians and the neolithical cultures of carpathia which were conquered by succesive waves of peoples coming from the east and moving towards south - i think the thracians are a good example of this route (i hope i have brought small light upon old facts)
Spoiler :
here is a picture from troia, culd they be so different - the answer is yes - they had iron, and especially in the carpathians there is lot of iron, plenty of iron, gold, silver, copper, tin, and so on, dorians are actually one of the last waves of migrators from these regions. and those regions beyond the danube are part of the natural fortress of the carpathian basin and there is a strong neolithic culture; i might even suspect, and i think there is evidence of metal used earlier than officialy believed (i have read about these things but i have forgotten since i am specialised in the middle ages); for example in transsylvania there are lots of hills reshaped to look like pyramids, lots of them from small - to giant, later occupation took place on top of such ensembles....i could talk hours about these things - but the idea is that strong culture florished around the danube area, and that culture was in open conflict with later waves coming from the steppes - so dacians and getai are actually early scythians and later sarmatian waves, the first to avoid the carpathians and only later settling there over inhabitans, and the dacians - recorded late in history seem to have been sarmatians that divided the land with celts - the boii, before these there have been other waves that settled the land and who fought back other waves of invaders - like in greece; so the point is that there were high cultures like the pelasgians and the neolithical cultures of carpathia which were conquered by succesive waves of peoples coming from the east and moving towards south - i think the thracians are a good example of this route (i hope i have brought small light upon old facts)
Spoiler :
The Guardian
Praetorian
Dorian refers to an ethnic group. The ancient greeks were divided into basically five ethnic groups which included the Dorians (which included Sparta, Crete, and Corinth) and the Aeolians, Achaeans and Ionians. Dorians were distinguished by the Doric Greek dialect and by characteristic social and historical traditions. In the 5th century BC, Dorians and Ionians were the two most politically important Greek ethne, whose ultimate clash resulted in the Peloponnesian War.
here are some images
here are some images
Spoiler :
The Guardian
Praetorian
Actually there are none. This invasion (speculative as it was invented by ancient Greek philologists to explain the cultural discontinuities of the time) was not really an invasion from outside of Greece .If we assume that the Dorian invasion took place some time in the twelfth century, we certainly know nothing of them for the next hundred years. Blegen admitted that in the sub-Mycenaean period following 1200 "the whole area seems to have been sparsely populated or almost deserted."
The problem is that there are no traces of any Dorians anywhere until the start of the Geometric period about 950 BC. This simple pottery decoration appears to be correlated with other changes in material culture, such as the introduction of iron weapons and alterations in burial practices from Mycenaean group burials in tholos tombs to individual burials and cremation. These can certainly be associated with the historical Dorian settlers, such as those of Sparta in the 10th century BC. However, they appear to have been general over all of Greece; moreover, the new weapons would not have been used in 1200.
The scholars were now faced with the conundrum of an invasion at 1200 but a resettlement at 950. One explanation is that the destruction of 1200 was not caused by them, and that the quasi-mythical return of the Heracleidae is to be associated with settlement at Sparta c. 950.
Read more...
Spoiler :
King Coltrane
King
The Guardian has done a good job explaining it, so I wont repeat too much, but essentially there is no evidence for a Dorian invasion and this idea has actually fallen out of favor among archaeologists. The greatest bit of evidence was something called handmade-burnished ware, which is essentially just crappy pottery found throughout Greece. But this has been interpreted as having nothing to do with any actual Dorian invasion.
As an archaeologist, I'd say there are no images because there was no Dorian invasion.
But as a Civ player and fan of your work, I say make something! Search for some images of Balcan settlement in the Bronze Age (if you'd like). Or just take mycenaean city graphics and perhaps make some buildings collapsed, abandoned, or in some way visually dilapidated. that should work.
As an archaeologist, I'd say there are no images because there was no Dorian invasion.
But as a Civ player and fan of your work, I say make something! Search for some images of Balcan settlement in the Bronze Age (if you'd like). Or just take mycenaean city graphics and perhaps make some buildings collapsed, abandoned, or in some way visually dilapidated. that should work.
Jerry'sGoldfish
Emperor
simple. if you want to learn more take herodot, tucidides and xenofon and read them whole (like i did) and see that there was a deep conflict between the different ethnical layers (pelasgians, arcadians, ionians, dorians, etc...), which conflict took a severe form through the image of spartan society - soldiers and sclaves...i will not describe what anyone knows....if a real invasion took place than it could have used internal factors like rebelling subjects, but the dorians are a different people in aspect language and culture (northerners...). the dorian world did nothing but to replace the feudal achean world, and this world could sustain itself only in the peloponesian peninsula, which was a stronghold - but had to be shared with the arcadian people which were already "freed" and so the conflict came in the second phase - the relation between the oldest layer and the newest, the mycenian beeing vanquished. in continental greece and in northern peolpones the migration route closed itself like a gap after the events concerning the fall of the achaens; also continental greece was much more subject to other invasions and i believe that it was only a secondary target, the big target beeing the mycenian peninsular stronghold - so a raid and a riot - they liked and stayed, but they could not control the whole peninsula....also interesting to note, as i was reading spartan history, is that they raised to great power in greece only about 750 BC, so classical greece is their apex....more than curious is their keeping of identity deep into byzantine times, around 900 AD, when they are last mentioned (people of sparta) - byzantines kept a stronghold around sparta and there was also a monastic centre (offer from mehmet to constantine) - so for some reason it was important to greek identity until modern times....also a fact mentioned in the bible states that while a meeting between iudaens and spartans took place they both agreed to share the same ancestor - Abraham - could this be possible?? that means that a certain identity came, lets say - from somewhere far away - and took hold in this natural stronhold of pelopones!? a possible phoenician hold in greece???
Spoiler :
The Guardian
Praetorian
"It has of late become an acknowledged scandal that the Dorians, archaeologically speaking, do not exist. That is, there is no cultural trait surviving in the material record for the two centuries or so after 1200 which can be regarded as a peculiarly Dorian hallmark. Robbed of their patents for Geometric pottery, cremation burial, iron-working and, the unkindest prick of all, the humble straight pin, the hapless Dorians stand naked before their creator - or, some would say, inventor."
(Cartledge, Paul (2002). Sparta and Lakonia: A Regional History, 1300-362. Routledge. p. 68. ISBN 0-415-26276-3.)
Jerry'sGoldfish
Emperor
and what say the genetical and anthropological studies ??
The Guardian
Praetorian
They couldn't prove anything and turned to the archeologist and said, "we can't agree, tell us whose right." The archeologist said, "We can't find any evidence that says any of you are right! Because THERE ISN'T ANY EVIDENCE!"
IS THAT SIMPLE ENOUGH FOR EVERYONE TO UNDERSTAND. The jury is still out on this one. The deliberation has been going on for more than 2,000 years and will probably go on for anther 2,000 years or as long as anyone is still interested. What do I say? GO for it. It would be an interesting what if scenario.
Jerry'sGoldfish
Emperor
i do not like stories, i like facts - what say the anthropologists??
The Guardian
Praetorian
Goldfish I KNOW you can read. Did you read post #15? Archeologically - they don't exist.
Jerry'sGoldfish
Emperor
so, is the bible right after all??
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