Drill and Flanking: Red herrings, or am I missing something?

[mariogreymist]

I'm still not sure what the key difference is. Tell me if this sounds right? "A Drill promoted unit has a lower chance of success than a Combat/CR promoted unit, but when it wins it takes less damage. This fact, combined with resistance to collateral damage from defending siege, allow an assault to move from target to target more quickly, but with potentially higher losses." Does that sum up drill? If I am understanding it right, I'm still not sure i like it.

Not quite. First strikes mean they can finish the battle with no damage, not simply less. So, assuming you've gotten collateral damage on a stack you're attacking, you can begin the attack with either your drill troops (Assuming the collateral was enough to make victory likely) freeing your combat troops to move to the front quickly...or, you can use the less promoted Combat line troops attack to take the first casualties, only bringing the drill troops into the fray once the strongest defenders have been severely wounded. Also, if your opponent has mounted troops, it's good to have unwounded units left guarding your siege after the city falls. The drill troops which won their combat will be able to defend well. Anyone who's ever seen a stack of trebs killed by chariots/HAs for want of a single unwounded defender will see the usefulness of this.

I tend to be a bit of a builder, though, so when I go to conquer, I have very narrow objectives and then plan to bring the smallest amount of troops necessary to get the job done with minimal risk. That usually means EVERYBODY fights, even the lowly spearman with medic 2 that was just there as a combination medic/chariot counter. By the time he fights there is one archer with .3 strength left, but still, he has to earn his keep. Maybe this is why I don't find drill useful. No matter what I did, the assault would have to pause after every city taken.

Generally, I am more or less the same way. I do plan to go to war often, but I plan my wars to be short affairs with specific objectives. In my experience, a mix of troops and promotions is usually the best way to achieve this result, unless your opponent has homogenous defenders, and weak defensive positions. (A kingdom with nothing but archers, and no hill cities can easily be killed by C1/cover axes, and nothing else) And yes...all the troops are there to fight. Cover and flanking troops are just for specific parts of the battle where combat promoted troops are likely to die or be severely wounded.

 

[Killroyan]

@Izmir: I am not encountering catapults with gunships, it is just an example. Why shouldn't gunships not be able to hurt catapults/trebuchets with flanking but knights can? Ok, I just found out that at least cavalry etc.. now can hit the old stuff too but that was changed 2 patches back. Never noticed it though.

@Windsor: I thought that flank attacks only works when you retreat so flanking I and II increasing the chance to deal that damage. If this is changed then I stand corrected.

 

[Iranon]

One thing I'm still not sure about is the usefulness of Drill when outclassed. The odds of winning will be worse than those of Combat units... but what about expected damage dealt to the opponent?

I THINK Drill units will have better chances to damage the opponent when odds are bad, so in a stack battle you'd want to use Drill units to pave the way -> Combat units to fight mostly fair fights -> Drill units to clean up.
I have no idea how to get the threshold when we should cease using Drill units on suicide missions from the info the game gives us though.

Could some maths guru shed a little light on that? It would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Killroyan]

Somebody already has done that math. It should be somewhere in a post in the strategy discussion. It shows that drill is better against low str units and that combat is better against equal or higher str units.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/combat_explained.php

In this article (all the way down to the bottom) there is a chapter that explains when drill is better then combat.

 

[Iranon]

Thanks for the link, but I knew that - very good - article already.

Knowing when Drill is better than Combat for survival odds isn't the problem - the graph on the bottom is good for healthy units, and even if wounded opponents are involved the game will readily tell you.

The part I'm interested in is very unfavourable fights, likelihood to damage the opponent and expected damage. I know Drill units will have even worse survival odds than Combat units in those situations... I'm wondering if they are still worth using; they might be if they damage the opponent more reliably and therefore give subsequent attackers better odds.

 

[troytheface]

obsolete was correct- "Drill" as "Armour"

programmers gave drill to certain units of protective civs

indicating a defensive promotion that competes with city garrison, and guerilla
(why wouldn't archers be able to have woodsman- i thought archers were kind of woodsman like)

and herein lies the answer- Drill- the defensive promotion for units in the field

if one has no need for a defensive promotion for units in the field then i could see it being less than optimal

for the Tal like offensive attack players or stonewall jackson -the evidence is clear- it is the superior

 

[Bostock]

the evidence is not clear

 

[troytheface]

one important difference - Drill is better against siege units and war elephants

as the geatest Drill promotion utilizer of all time i suggest the Drill line for protective leaders over
Combat- and later, Formation/Cover over other alternatives.

 

[ungy]

I'm not a user of either as a rule.

I generally don't build armies of mounted units--HA come at the wrong time IMHO, if I have to chariot rush normally the key battle is for the capital. Combat 1 units do more damage, and an extra 10% to survive is just not worth it.

It's true that flanking2 mounteds can do damage to seige but to actually kill them you need a lot of them--if you have that many units you're probably better off letting the AI crash against your city.

Drill--what's the big deal about avoiding a little damage? At that point you surely have a medic so it's not a big deal (and other units need to heal anyway). And the AI will have a lot of units that are immune.

 

[Izmir Stinger]

I'm not a user of either as a rule.

Neither was I, but I'm going to give flanking another try on mounted units other than chariots and Knights means I'm not going to be trying it for a while because those are my two most commonly used mounted units.

It's true that flanking2 mounteds can do damage to seige but to actually kill them you need a lot of them--if you have that many units you're probably better off letting the AI crash against your city.

It is also true that any mounted unit that wins combat gets to do flanking damage as well, a fact a few responders seem to be missing. So yes, the flanking promotion might increase the odds of doing flanking damage, but so do combat promotions, if not by as much.

Drill--what's the big deal about avoiding a little damage? At that point you surely have a medic so it's not a big deal (and other units need to heal anyway). And the AI will have a lot of units that are immune.

That's what I'm saying. If I could make it so my artillery wasn't taking any damage either I may be interested in this prospect, but I can't so I'm not. It seems that city defenders might benefit from it if faced with a stack of cats and mop up units, but again, there appear to be much better ways to deal with that than an otherwise sub-optimal promotion choice.

What complicates all of this is the fact that though flanking or drill may be the best choice right now, the decision is permanent so I need to think of what is in the long term interests of the unit, assuming he has a chance of long term survivability (i.e. not a swordsman in a war vs. a rival with feudalism). Saving promotions until the last second helps a bit, but promotions usefulness for speeding healing usually means all promotions are spent soon after a war begins.

 

[obsolete]

Drill--what's the big deal about avoiding a little damage? At that point you surely have a medic so it's not a big deal (and other units need to heal anyway).

It's a big deal when you are out-numbered. Medics only heal once per turn, not per battle.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's a big deal when you are out-numbered. Medics only heal once per turn, not per battle.

I put that I sometimes use it, but I would rate it a lot higher if the AI didn't spam the hell out of FS immune stuff for 3/4 of the game .

 

[SillyGoat]

@Windsor: I thought that flank attacks only works when you retreat so flanking I and II increasing the chance to deal that damage. If this is changed then I stand corrected.

"Flank" attacks will damage siege whenever the attacker survives combat, either by winning or by retreating. *


* assuming the attacker is capable of doing "flanking damage"

 

[oyzar]

On siege against small stacks in the field and on machine guns (which is quite useful as it ignores colleteral from siege weapons, which any player worth his salt will use defensivly (AI won't)) drill is useful. It can also be pretty good on oromo warriors or if you are defending in heavily defensive terrain (fortified cities and forest hills) against non-mounted units. Also when fighting against heavily wounded units (from collerteral) drill is likely better than combat, but if you are fighting against heavily wounded units, what promos you take doesn't matter that much...

Flanking is great on cavalery and HA's (even though all of them certainly shouldn't get flanking, you'll see how many needs it when you do the assult). The second promotion is soo much better than the 1st one that it isn't funny (for cavalery 30->40 is ~14% chance less of dying while 40->60 is 33.33% less chance of dying or about 2.4 times better for the second promo). Flanking is also useful on knights and currasairs, especially when fighting against siege weapons. Chariots doesn't benefit a whole lot from this promotion though. The flanking 2 promotion also makes your unit immune to first strikes. Most mounted units are immune to first strikes already but it is nice for cavalery when fighting protective longbows or capratches. This fact also makes the drill line worse than it otherwise would be.

 

[TheLazyHase]

but if you are fighting against heavily wounded units, what promos you take doesn't matter that much...

Blitz does.

In other time, it may matter. If you're outteched and trying to kill rifleman with samurai, you may have to look at what's best.

(I will not say that drill is best in this particular case because truly I don't know)

Chariots doesn't benefit a whole lot from this promotion though. The flanking 2 promotion also makes your unit immune to first strikes. Most mounted units are immune to first strikes already but it is nice for cavalery when fighting protective longbows or capratches. This fact also makes the drill line worse than it otherwise would be.

The only reason for wich Chariot would not benefit from it would be because in my opinion you want to destroy a lot of them. But otherwise, survival edge is better for me than combat if you're weaker than your opponent, and it's likely that chariot will be weaker.

I tend to think that the first strike immunity is more something that avoid drill to be too powerful rather than a drill problem. Just think to make different unit to defend against cavalry and to defend against other thing : combat / formation pikeman/rifleman/SAMs and regular CG or drill archery/gunpowder unit.

 

[Iranon]

I like Drill.

On defensive terrain, it greatly increases your chances of surviving fights undamaged... useful if a handful of Rifles need to hold off 100 Jaguar Warriors. Combat units would be overwhelmed eventually.

On the offense, Drill is particularly strong against wounded units - against units decimated by collateral damage, Drill IV Oromos sometimes beat Riflemen with either 2 combat or 2 drill promotions (even if the Oromo's first strike immunity is a non-factor).
Personally, I like to throw siege at the defenders until they are at the collateral damage limit and spare my cleanup troops for a very simple reason:
Reguar units too damaged to fight need to heal to become useful again. Siege units too damaged to fight can still speed up a war by bombardment.

My main problem with Drill is that it renders counter promotions against units without first strike immunity useless - the best defender code values first strikes too highly.

*

In mostly even fights, combat or counter promotions do better... but really, why should one fight fair?

 

[troytheface]

Fact- Chariot-Flanking- equalize first strike

Fact- Flanking to Sentry for field of vision

Fact- The time of the chariot is limited

Fact- Archers/Chariots Spear/Horse

this is the superior

 

[TheLazyHase]

Fact- Chariot-Flanking- equalize first strike

Fact- Flanking to Sentry for field of vision

Fact- The time of the chariot is limited

Fact- Archers/Chariots Spear/Horse

this is the superior

Fact - I don't understand what you are trying to say, especially the third fact.

Can you explain a little more please ?

 

[troytheface]

Fact- 3 main enemy strengths- early chariots, siege, war elephants

Fact- Drill works against all three

the evidence is clear

 

[TheLazyHase]

Thank for the explanation.