Early border popping

[Soirana]

Why so much hastle? just start monument and put overflow into granary...
Or you mean you finish granary before growing?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Don't build workers off unimproved tiles in new cities. Use improved tiles, and workers from other cities. Monument first is often good but sometimes you can get away with delaying it if your best tiles are all in first 8. In that case strong buildings like granary or in rare cases granary/library (no monument) may be useful.

As mentioned, religion and caste are also good for an early pop. In NSR all religions give culture and spreading one may be worth it for the pop alone. If all your specials are in the first 8 then you can also just go granary and hope that a trade network (assuming you have it) to a holy city gets you a spread, or an AI sends a missionary. If not, just whip in the monument later.

Most of the time monument followed by something else (granary, workers, settlers, units to defend) is good though.

 

[Kevie]

i solve my border problems by making sure i get the stonehedge =P

 

[TheMeInTeam]

SH isn't always worth its cost, though. It's a lot better if you have a ton of city sites nearby that need a pop to be optimal, you're doing some AP cheese, or you start with mysticism or something. I rarely build it these days though...the yield from getting a 2nd city on improved tiles right away is hard to pass up.

 

[helemaalnicks]

I'll do it with stone in BFC, rush or REX, with stone, it's DEF worth it, monument in every city, for the prize of 2 monuments, and +2GP to boot. Hard to pass that up imo. Especially if you have the worker to chop it for ya, and the second city up already (this is possible if you get the second city up very quickly, as 60H is just 1 chop and 3 turns of heavy hammer building .

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Stone requires you tech masonry or it doesn't help. That's in addition to mysticism (assuming you have mysticism)...and you're not going to get far without mining/specials and/or bronzeworking. Some tech/land combos it makes sense. For many, it doesn't.

 

[helemaalnicks]

You're not improving stone if you get mining as starting tech and say... fishing/agri for the food??

Isn't that a waste? Sure, BW is important, but masonry is basically teching a worker tech for a much desired hammerheavy tile early. I don't see the problem with that.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I DID say it makes sense for some tech/land combos!

 

[Gwynnja]

I would rather whip a monument at size 2, then chop my granary, unless I have a religion. If I have a religion, and hopefully the shrine, I'll start with a granary and hope that the religion spreads automatically to the new city. Sometimes a library is a better build than a monument if a. the city is going to be a commerce city or b. I'm going to need a university there to build oxford later.

 

[assass1n]

Gran -> Pop 2 -> 1 Turn in Monument and Whip
Work High Food Tiles and don't let stupid Governor work forests

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Grouping workers isn't a good way to prevent MM. If you would never lose a workerturn, you're still giving just as many commands per workerturn as you would if you ungrouped them. So any MM you manage to avoid is directly linked to the inefficienty. Besides, every worked tile needs an improvement, if you're not automating them, if doesn't matter how you control your workers, you're still giving one command per tile, plus the road network.

The MM only changes when you mass workers, like chain irrigating (which I usually perform in groups capable of irrigating a tile in one turn). But that's usually mid-game, before that, two workers working seperately on one city can keep up with the growthrate, especially if you're whipping. Even 6F tiles like pigs won't give your city more growth than 2 workers can handle.

I went with your approach this weekend and it was great. I realized that even if I only lost 1 worker turn for every action for every stack of 2 workers, then I'm losing something like 250+ worker turns every game. But I also noticed that in the early game, I'd rather sacrifice 1 worker turn to have a resource connected in almost half the time. So I'd say the situation calls for different solutions. If I just captured an AI capital early in the game, I want 4 workers out there connecting up roads/resources ASAP. I want that city up and running NOW. So stacking 2 workers in 2 pairs gets the city completely improved in 2 dozen turns on marathon which rocks. I have a lot more options to MM my cities (which I'd rather do than workers).

But generally speaking, I'd rather not lose worker turns and now I don't stack, I improve multiple tiles with single workers.

 

[CivCorpse]

Stone requires you tech masonry or it doesn't help. That's in addition to mysticism (assuming you have mysticism)...and you're not going to get far without mining/specials and/or bronzeworking. Some tech/land combos it makes sense. For many, it doesn't.

I tech masonry really really early....and you know why LOL. I'm skeered

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I tech masonry really really early....and you know why LOL. I'm skeered

Only strengthens the case for avoiding SH. I know you're not going masonry to get stone to build STONEHENGE on marathon/huge. That's a distant 2nd on your priority list, TOPS.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

masonry without bw won't get you sh from a certain lvl. on; you'll just miss it even with bonus from connected stone. Guess that's what TMIT is tryin' to say.

regarding monument - if needed, work it till 2, whip it at 2(there's no point in building a gran. and then switch 1 turn before pop. 2 to monument and whip it a 2 - it just adds unnecessary microing... either via overflow or via turns spent on gran at pop. 1, you'll still get same hammers in it).

I try to get it asap when it's the case(if really needed for a key resource which is in 2nd ring, I'll even chop it), otherwise, pass it till some religion spreads unless everything is in 2nd ring. Another prob. I have with sh is that those don't double the cultural output in 1k years and when your city generates 3 culture(monument + lib), 1 more is 33% increase and can result in controlling another tile or 2.

regarding workers in new cities - if city at size 2 and I have a spare worker - chop a forest, whip and get another(that goes for city 2-3 when capitol does some wonder or crap and I can't afford building them in capitol or when cap. ain't too great and I run two scientists so the output is poor).

on marathon I was using groups of 3 workers. Since everything is x3(all actions regarding workers), all you'll waste is transit time. And frankly... you have time on marathon

on normal I group them only if 2-3 cities are waiting for that improvement - say, a dye tile - city owning it waits to work it, city 2-3 are already in unhappiness awaiting for the new resource. Otherwise, as tedious as it is, I keep them ungrouped. Other exceptions being chain irrigation and groups of 2 when needing a railroad to front line asap and I just got the tech.

 

[Dirk1302]

Not being creative i generally go monument first unless i have all the goodies first ring. But founding the new city i almost always have a worker nearby to immed chop the monument (or workboat or whatever the city needs to make it productive asap). So imo planning ahead is more important than the question which will i build first when the second city is founded. I know what to build once i found it or i wouldn't have found it in the first place (just let the settler rest on the spot where the city is to be founded saving on maintenance).

 

[popejubal]

Only strengthens the case for avoiding SH. I know you're not going masonry to get stone to build STONEHENGE on marathon/huge. That's a distant 2nd on your priority list, TOPS.

On the other hand, early techs are cheap and getting double production on Stonehenge because of Stone might make a chop or two and a couple turns of production worthwhile if you've already chopped out the Great Wall. If you make it, great. If you don't make it, you get a decent amount of cash to help keep you safe while you REX under the protection of the Great Wall.

Edit: assuming that Stonehenge somehow hasn't been completed by the time you build the Great Wall.