Everybody's Unique Unit: The Marine

I appreciate all of the comments and compliments...

@jst: If you like the cool animations of Marines, have you played with paratroopers yet? :mischief:

zerksees said:
1) One advantage to Marines is that you can use the element of surprise to attack an enemy city that may not be well defended. Did you say this and I missed it?
This is an excellent point - and no, I did not say this. For general purposes, I find it best to assume the cities will be defended with the best unit available, but taking advantage of an opportunity like that is good thinking.
2) One disadvantage is the low attack value. Try attacking MI in a size 14 city on a hill with a radar tower. You will need a lot of marines to take that one. Check the odds in the combat calculator.
This is a really good point, a quick check the attack stats of marines shows that in Civ III and PTW, the Marine is an 8/6/1 unit. In C3C, the attack value was changed to 12/6/1. Based on this, it would appear that radar towers would have a greater impact on these tactics in PTW (since vanilla doesn't have radar towers...).
This can be offset with bombers or battleships bombarding to soften up the units. This is a must IMO. The battleships can double as transport escorts.
The need to apply combined arms will increase with the quality of the defense you expect. A little bombardment could also be used to soften up any units defending a radar tower that happens to be on the shoreline...

Great comments Zerksees - you've added a bit to this, thanks!
 
At 12/6/1 the marine would be much better. In the C3C games I have played so far the AI is no longer a factor by the time I get to build marines. All of my marine experience is with PTW.

Another thought on attack value: if you think it is too low to achieve your objective then put some of the marines into an army.
 
scoutsout said:
@jst: If you like the cool animations of Marines, have you played with paratroopers yet?
Oh yes, much cuter than marines.


scoutsout said:
Based on this, it would appear that radar towers would have a greater impact on these tactics in PTW (since vanilla doesn't have radar towers...). The need to apply combined arms will increase with the quality of the defense you expect. A little bombardment could also be used to soften up any units defending a radar tower that happens to be on the shoreline...
I've deployed a couple of times following tactic:
since AI usually does not defend well enough it's radar towers(even a lonely rifleman), and with lethal air bombardment, I've bombed the defender to eternity and dropped some paratroopers there to destroy the tower.

But, you'd need to be in para-range...
 
Well written and well thought out article Scout. :goodjob:

I have used marines in the past but more so for curiosity sake. If I get time between SGOTM, GOTM, the TDG, and all of my lurking I plan to set up a battle with your tactics in mind from the start.

I agree with you Scout, on the fact that one of the greatest things about Civ is it's "replayability". If you want to play a game where one strategy or one tactic always works...go play pac man...

:rockon:
 
Later but, first of all: Well done Scout!!

Sorry if I’m wrong but: no people have written about the possibility in C3C to load an army with MARINES???? I think it’s a very important change from CivIII or PTW

Prove and got a terrific 2 times amphibius atack with a 4 marines Army (having an implement defensive unit and reduce the loses you would have).

With 2 or 3 marines Divs well scorted with carriers & Bs you can take easily few costal cities in few turns.

To recalculate: A transport can load 1 army & 1 unit more

In such tipe of naval invasion I search a coastal city with an airport (or use a captured worker to make a airbase) and send the bulk of my assault MBTs & MECHs by air

Enjoy
 
@Olixas: I'm glad you enjoyed the article. Your airlifting technique would be a lot easier to do in C3C than Vanilla CivIII, but it's sound tactic. When I wrote that I tried to keep it general so it would be useful for alll versions of the game... and I can see how a "Marine Army" would be a real terror...
 
An excellent article. Marines make a great spearpoint.

I think it should be remembered, however, that the Marine Corp is most closely tied to the Navy,not the Army. Marines really shine in naval warfare.

I just played an archipelago game where various enemies attacked my ships, then fled back into safe harbors. One of these was a one-square island in an extremely strategic location. Sure, the city was useless... and I didn't even need the harbor for myself. But I needed to deny it to the Indians, and until I built a marine force my superior numbers of ships, Magellan's Expedition, nothing made my naval superiority secure.

Later, I needed to invade. I chose to liberate China from the Indians (the two of them started out together on the only real continent on the map), judging the odds of culture flipping low, the odds of casualties relatively low (due to the cities being small from having been fought over so recently) and due to the presence of large quantities of two luxury goods in the area, both nonexistent elsewhere. My first attempt was a disastrous failure; I didn't have marines, my entire fleet was wiped out at sea - including two fully loaded transports. (Small, yes. I'd been racing to get there before the Chinese were wiped out.)

I acquired Marines, took over that one-square island I mentioned which secured the sea route, built a larger fleet including a full transport of marines. Supported by naval gunfire, they managed to secure a beachhead and destroyed the Indian ships before they could attack my fleet (not that they could have defeated this one, but I didn't want to lose any ships if I could avoid it).

Later, that one-square island became an extremely important air base when I was surprise-attacked by another civilizaton.
 
>>I can't really think of any reason one would chose to launch an amphibous assault on a city rather then simply land next to the city and attack it a turn or two later.<<

Another reply to this might be that if one lets a turn pass after war is declared, most enemy cities rush buy units. Thus, by waiting the extra turn, you're actually fighting a larger force. This has a more significant effect if the units you unload into the captured coastal city are actually capable of conquering half a dozen or more nearby cities. Especially at regent or below, a one-turn blitz has much more potential to cripple an unprepared enemy than a landing which gives them time to create reinforcements.
 
The point in attacking a city with Marines in a coast is to invade quickly and decisively. With the right kinds of troops, you can take as many are three, four, five, or even all the enemy civs cities in one turn using Marines to break the coastal towns as an entry point. This is only possible because you can field in Marines.

It is only superficially true that you can't match an AI's unit production based on proximity. Based on inherent level based advantages, yes, but by the time you research Advanced Flight, Proximity should be a thing of the past. Using Transports to ferry defensive Infantry is usually inefficient and inflexible. You will never be able to match home production using this tactic. Much better is to load 3 Transports with Marines supported by Bombers for the initial softening of the land target and followed by generous helpings of Artillery. 6 to 8 Transports worth of Artillery using 36 to 48 Artillery is modest, but then again, you are heading back for more, so more Transports may be redundant.

You use Airports to transfer mechanized troops to the scene of the action. For Infantry, Helicopters are much, much more efficient and flexible in terms of unit transport. If you're expecting heavy air cover, investing in Fighters on Carriers to defend the airspace immediately around the landing city may be appropriate and entirely worth the investment. Even if you don't, the tactic will work anyway.

You can use as many as 10 to 15 Helicopters to ferry troops, but in general, I find that 9 will suffice at the Monarch level, provided you take a maximum of three cities on landing, and plan ahead. You can take two only, or even just one, if you feel the counterattack is going to be especially vicious. Nine Helis will allow you to transfer 27 Infantry to your newly acquired city as a Rebase action, which I believe does not provoke air superiority attacks. If you wake them, they will be ready to move within the turn. Next turn, Rebase the Helis back to their home cities. On the third turn, you can ferry another 27 Infantry to whichever city or cities you may be holding at the time. Your Airport will typically complete at this stage, allowing you to also simultaneously transport as many Tanks as you have Airports in your home civ.

If you prepare 81 Infantry for use in defending your newfound territory, your 9 Helis can Rebase and distribute them in any city you capture within 5 turns, regardless of territory control and state of Rail and Pillage. Provided that you're within 2 transport hops away from your mainland, 4 Transports can transfer 12 of any unit every 2 turns to your landing city. Six can actually deliver 24 in the first 2 turns and 8 can deliver 12 every turn. This cost, however, quickly escalates with distance, and you may end up with ending up to 20 transports or more apart from the Transports you will need to land your Marines. Of course, your selection of landing cities will tend to be limited because of this, and the Transports are always subject to Bombers, Submarines, Battleships, and what not. And pillaging can hurt transport, and you may not need most of these once you get an Airport online. A collection of 9 Helis can transfer an average of 16.2 units per turn anywhere, in the first 5 turns.

Sixteen Helis can deliver 48 Infantry at a bunch and an average of 24 per turn on any particular landing spot you may so choose, and in any particular city you choose to invade after that. In addition, they can land the same number of Infantry anywhere within Paradrop range of their base city, allowing you instant threats to all key resources so long as you have air superiority.

In general, I find that 2 Helis per "core" city is easy to queue (more cities can build Helis vs. Transports) and more than outstrips that city's production within 10 turns of initiating transfers. You are quite apt to find yourself lacking troops at home unless all your core cities are capable of building 1 Infantry every single turn. Even so, you will then instantly transfer that new Infantry into your enemy's territory with no loss of movement and matching his production turn for turn. Together with Airlifts, Helis can completely drain your core civ production by means of transferring power.

In such a situation, even with tech advantage to the opposing civ, once the Airport on the landing city is built, just having the appropriate Gov and the first turn in a war can build a decisive edge for you.

In such a situation, capturing the first (few?) landing city(ies) quickly and efficiently reduces War Weariness significantly. If these are core and key cities, your AI opponent may not recover from the blow. After all, having to kill 48 Infantry + 50+ Artillery + 12+ Surviving Marines only two turns before having to kill another 48 Infantry and an imminent Airport is no mean feat. You should be able to quickly assess whether the enemy is capable of this, based on spy reports. Even with a technically stronger enemy army, capturing and holding onto the AI civ's 5 core cities is often decisive.

Just to illustrate the point, I find that 200 or so Infantry (plus various other units) on Communist on a moderately sized civ on a standard map tends to already strain the unit support. 16 Helis can transport 144 of these units in 5 turns. On the 3rd or fourth turn, you should be able to finish an Airport and manage at least one series of Airlifts of Tanks by the 5th turn. If you have a modest 16 Airport cities, that's 160 units, plus the 48 Artillery and the 12+ surviving Marines from the assault. Of course, the Transports shouldn't be resting their bums, either. So in 5 turns you should be able to land 220 land units on enemy territory using 11 Transports and 16 Helicopters and Airports.

On every succeeding turn, you can ferry an average of 24 Infantry and 16 Mechanized Units. Assuming the Transports need 4 turns to make the crossing, your 11 Transports will arrive with 66 more Artillery within 7-8 turns of your initial assault.

All this is possible only because you can capture the initial city on a coastal assault (and defend using that city's defense bonuses).
 
Wakboth said:
Just a couple observations:

You need to very carefully weigh your options. Honestly, I've never bothered with marines. The real problem with them is that they are a specialty unit, and one in which you only use when you are forced to attack in a less then ideal manner. Why would you spend dozens of turns ahead of time to build specialty units just so you can make an expensive amphibious assault?

Because no one expects a massive Marine invasion from the sea, that's why. If there is going to be an amphibious attack, most players would expect for it to be a landing and not a direct city-attack, simply because Marines are a dead end, a specialty unit, and are costly. Players tend to depend on their rails to get units into their coastal cities and to attack while the landing party spends it's turn sitting on a hill or mountain or such. With such a strategy, one can defend an extremely large area of ground with a much smaller force than to fortify every single coastal city with 15+troops. To defend against an amphibious attack, one must have adequate sentry ships deployed, but those can easily be destroyed a few turns before an attack, and if the aggressor maintains naval superiority, the only other option a player has to defend against an amphibious assault is to heavily fortify every single coastal city with hundreds of units. So while it may be expensive to launch an amphibious assault, if a player wishes to be protected from an amphibious assault, s/he must spend a lot more shields on a ton more units in order to be protected. Granted, a player can have fighters to scout, but that is also very expensive to implement since you need so many fighters to scout along all of your border.

This is why I like the Marine unit. Your enemies are either surprise attacked and completely overwhelmed on coastal cities, or b) it forces them to commit a vast number of resources to preventing such an attack, which restrains them from taking the offensive.

With that being said, whenever I perform amphibious assaults, I always always bomb and bombard the crap out of the target city so that I do not lose my Marines. I usually unload at least 12 Infantry and 40+ artillery pieces for defense and whatever else I want for the offensive campaign. That, in conjunction with 12-20 bombers off the coast will stave off any SOD the AI sends my way. I would only destroy the rails if the enemy has an absolutely enormous military, though. Doing so will hurt your further incursion into the continent, since you will not have the benefit of the rails either, and must rebuild them. But if you do take out the rails for several spaces, your air and artillery support can chew up any advancing SOD, so you do not need as many defensive units.

Lastly, I have been in a few games where I was without either oil and aluminum (sometimes both, heh) and the ONE thing that saved my ass were Marines, with their 12 attack power. Marines in armies are faaantastic, too.
 
Excelent article

Everything well described and explended, I am realy going to try this out in my most resent game (conquest victory only and a whole continet owned by the might Germans and there swift Panzers to take) I hope it will help me bring the conflict to an end in mine advantage.
once again great work I hope to read more from your hands(perhapse once for Civ4)??:confused:
 
What I've learned is.. A good Defense unit is more necessary. Some units take ground.. It takes defenders to keep it. I use Bombers to Soften up my enemy, maybe 1 tank to hammer them, and 3 artillery and 3 infantry/spearmen, etc to hold the ground
All you really need is Bombers, fighters, Artillery and Infantry.
 
Just want to remind you that there are alternatives. Raising a city or 2 that you couldn't early in a war while allies attack your enemies borders. If the enemy isn't nearby, but on the same continent, you can attack on turn 1 with 6 Marines, even if you don't take the city, your enemy will now be protecting that area, your allies might or might not get a few cities, by turn 10 or so, your tank SoD will be attacking cities that your enemy has left less protected.
 
Personally, i agree with everything this article said. Whenever i invade a place (I usaully play on a map that ismostly islands) I always use Marines to secure a coastel city, link up with airborne forces in the area, and to patch up my lines at DMZs (i intend to post a thing on the military academy about that.) When given good navel/air/armor support, marines can easily be the best units for any time of invasion. -502nd PIR
 
Personally, i agree with everything this article said. Whenever i invade a place (I usaully play on a map that ismostly islands) I always use Marines to secure a coastel city, link up with airborne forces in the area, and to patch up my lines at DMZs (i intend to post a thing on the military academy about that.) When given good navel/air/armor support, marines can easily be the best units for any time of invasion. -502nd PIR
 
Actually, Dragoons were a light cavalry unit. I'm not sure who used them, apart from the british, but they were used against us (The U.S.) in the revolutionary war, and i believe they were still around in the Napoleonic wars. A Fusileer, as far as I know, Is a more heavy cavalry unit. I don't know to much about them, apart from the fact they were usedby either Germany, France, or someother Europeon country like that.
 
Roxlimn said:
You use Airports to transfer mechanized troops to the scene of the action.
A tip I picked up recently from Scoutsout... Make room in your first transports for a worker to build an airfield (much faster than waiting for an airport to complete). Build many airfields on your home continent (also faster and no maintenance costs) for airlifting units to the front.

The airfield will need to be defended, but enemy bombers will ignore it while going after an airport in a city. This worked beautifully for me.
 
It's nice to see some recent discussion in this thread. (This was my first "tactical piece"...)

@Harriet: When I wrote this article, I put it together with an eye towards keeping it "generic"; applicable to "vanilla" civ III as well as C3C. The piece I wrote on Airborne operations goes into using workers to build airfields... something you can't do in Vanilla....

@502nd PIR: "All the Way, and then some!" Post your DMZ thoughts in Strategy and Tips. (I'll look in a minute to see if you've already posted it somewhere...) I'm interested in your thoughts...
 
Top Bottom