Final Fixes Reborn

[rocklikeafool]

@StateNames: I guess your name is overridden by another one with similar requirements, but higher priority. You should both try to put your code at the start of the file, and on the end of the file (but not both at once ). In one of this cases it should get the highest priority.

Well, I tried putting it at the end of the file. I'll try putting it at start then.

 

[copx]

Of course not. But the alternative is adding Civ-specific restrictions to certain religious techs.

Actually there are countless possible alternatives. I would suggest the devs look at Master of Mana there, they improved the religion situation a lot.

And that has a drawbacks, namely that not everyone is going to agree. Obviously, it makes sense for all the evil Civs to found OO, AV, or CoE. BUT what about the neutral civs? Dwarves are a shoe-in for RoK, and elves are probably good for FoL. (Although, Svartalfar are clearly designed to switch to CoE at some point.) But what about...for instance, the Amurites? Or the Sidar? What religion would they choose? That's where choices get more murky.

If the religious choice of a civ/leader is not a clear cut thing we let the AI choose among valid options with appropriate bias.
Also civs like the Amurites or Sidar which aren't linked to one of the religions in the game should simply not research religion techs at all, and only adopt a religion if it spreads to them and is not inappropriate. Amu and Sida are unusually open there, I think they should be allowed to adopt all religions.

That brings me to another issue, because of the lack of general balance and the unequal starts I often end up in a situation where the AI tech leader researches and founds ALL or almost all religions before everyone else. That happened in my last game.

Bannor leader got a good start, and for some reason he researched Overlords first.. that made him evil and his dialog texts hilariously inappropriate. I call this a bug, why does a Bannor leader research Overlords at all? He certainly should never research it before the Order.

But well, as I said he was the AI tech leader and thus researched and founded all religions except the White Hand which I researched first. The AI was completely silly there. Looked like it was programmed to focus on religion techs in general.. he researched all religions before going further in the tech tree.

On the positive side, I became Auric Ascended and showed that little Calamari worshiper what a Real God looks like

Yes, I researched the entire teach tree, brought forth Armageddon, killed the Four Horsemen, the Avatar of Wrath, and all other civs on a Large Erebus continent map. Not a single crash or bug encountered!

There's a reason that the original FfH team decided to handle religion by having WeightModifiers.

Not a good one though. All this has indeed been broken since the original FfH. I think the current system is about the worst imaginable one. Nothing is perfect but it is hard to do worse than the status quo if you ask me.

EDIT: I should point out that I played version R58 (from the SVN repo)

 

[rocklikeafool]

That brings me to another issue, because of the lack of general balance and the unequal starts I often end up in a situation where the AI tech leader researches and founds ALL or almost all religions before everyone else. That happened in my last game.

Bannor leader got a good start, and for some reason he researched Overlords first.. that made him evil and his dialog texts hilariously inappropriate. I call this a bug, why does a Bannor leader research Overlords at all? He certainly should never research it before the Order.
That is odd. Maybe a modifier towards certain religion techs would work, similar to the current religionweightmodifier. Something like:

<ResearchReligionModifier>[value from -x to +y]</ResearchReligionModifier>

Of course, this would need Python or C++ to be fully implemented.

Not a good one though. All this has indeed been broken since the original FfH. I think the current system is about the worst imaginable one. Nothing is perfect but it is hard to do worse than the status quo if you ask me.

I think it's just that AI in general needs to be beefed up in certain areas. But that's not an easy task.

 

[Gangrin]

About religions in general and religion-civ relationship:

Firstly, i strongly disagree with a notion that any civilization (except for Illians) should be "locked on" on one religion. Yeah, it makes sense Bannor going for Order, but what's wrong with going RoK? or Empy? I think ReligionWeight is ok, it just needs to be adjusted a bit, so that absolutely improbable combinations should be avoided (Order Sheaim? AV Ljos? WH Amurites? No, thanks).

Secondly, i think religion should be an addition to the civ, something that should help in a particular situation, not to be an unsaid part of it. For example, i am a Ljos player, there's a lot of water tiles and fish around, going Fishing -> OO seems reasonable (and let's face it, seafaring elves are not unheard of, and their worshiping of some wicked sea gods only adds to the charm), but i HAVE to go FoL, otherwise my civ will suck. Or this evil Khazad slaver leader (forgot his name), who is bend on a self-profit and making money by any means, lore-wise, he should NOT go for RoK (their being all nice and good-loving), more like CoE or AV (if we have devil-worshiping duergar type), but again, playing as a Khazad you HAVE to go RoK, because, you know, gold-producing temples, improvement of a dwarf fortresses, etc. I think this situation should be revised. Yeah, i understand that it would take too much hassle and, in some cases, remodeling civ from scratch, so it's not happening, but i voiced my opinion on a matter.

And lastly, religion imbalance in particular. Yes, balance issue is as old, as FFH itself, but i'll elaborate. With about 30 different civs, it's impossible to make them all balanced (though, we have two instances of ground-breaking monstrosities called Malakim and Grigori and one instance of bleak weakling called Chislev, which should be mended), but in a religion's case, we only have 8 of them, and difference in power between them is tremendous.

In short: RoK >> AV > Order > FoL >> OO > Emp > WH >>>>>>>CoE

I won't go into explaining every problem, but I'll point out the most important ones:
1) RoK is OP. Its temples provide the most valued resource, they have a low-game and a mid-game heroes, the Avatar, really good civic, their priests have good spells and they have FREAKING MINES OF GAL-DUR. This religion shines at every moment of the game, it useful for every victory type and it's not that hard to use it.
2) Empyrean. A long time ago, i saw a question somewhere on this forum: "Why would anyone go Empy?". The answer were "Chalid". And that's the main problem. Whole religion is centered on a single hero (who IS powerful, no jokes about that). They have no unique civic, no unique wonder, their units are pretty meh, their priest's spell is useless, and this religion is discovered the last of all (tied with CoE). IMO, this religion needs a lot of work
3) White hand. Religion that is created solely for one civ - it's bad design, honestly. Moreover, religion, that decreases value of your territory and provides nothing really useful in return? You joking, right? Even Doviello under Charadon would go FoL rather than WH
4) Council of Esus. I don't know where to start. No temples (therefore, no happiness and bonus income of any kind), no priests, no unique civic, no unique wonder, you have to pay gold to spread this religion, they have two units - one absolutely useless, the other actually rather decent - but it comes at the end of a techtree, and they are limited at 4, their unique promotions are garbage, save for one or two and this religion is discovered the last of all (tied with Empy). The only good thing about it is earliest "archmage" hero (with an absolutely useless unique ability, though) and rather overrated ability to not have your units removed from enemy's territory during DoW. Why would anyone at any time go for CoE is beyond me. If Empyrean religion needs a lot of work, Council of Esus needs a total and complete renovation

 

[acestealth]

Hmm. I think you underestimate the value of some religions based on the civ and situation, but agree that some could use some more beefing up to make them more viable. I also disagree that CoE is the least useful of the religions, I've always thought Emp was. CoE's ability to spread via gold is a strength if gold is plentiful especially with a civ who can enter neutral territory without open borders or war declaration. I think they could use some extra benefits to make up for a lack of temples perhaps though.

As for WH it is restricted to being only useful to illians, but since they can live in ice and nobody else can, it makes for a considerable defence. As much or more than the lizards swamps. Making this a viable religion for doviello is a thought though.

 

[Jaded_Feriluce]

This isn't quite the subject on hand... but is anyone else having issues with the AI civs not hooking up or developing mana nodes? I'm stoked this has been brought back... I'm not a coder but I'm pretty creative with my writing... I'd love to help add stuff to the pedia if I can.

 

[rocklikeafool]

This isn't quite the subject on hand... but is anyone else having issues with the AI civs not hooking up or developing mana nodes?

How far along into the game are you? A lot of what I tend to notice is that, in the mid-early game, AI doesn't always get the techs required to develop mana nodes. Usually, since I want various techs they have, I'm nice enough to trade techs.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Hmm. I think you underestimate the value of some religions based on the civ and situation, but agree that some could use some more beefing up to make them more viable. I also disagree that CoE is the least useful of the religions, I've always thought Emp was. CoE's ability to spread via gold is a strength if gold is plentiful especially with a civ who can enter neutral territory without open borders or war declaration. I think they could use some extra benefits to make up for a lack of temples perhaps though.

I would also add that OO is quite powerful, for a conqueror type of player. They're basically the civ of choice, if you want an evil religion and don't feel like f*cking yourself over by going with AV. (Provided you're not too big on playing the Infernals, that is; since only they really benefit from hell terrain). A few catapults, a mage or three, and several drowns (with bronze weapons) is good in the mid-early game. By mid-game, you have OO-specific heroes, iron weapons, cultists, and stygian guards. Use tsunami and your catapults to soften up enemy defenders and then smash in with your stygian guards and heroes. (Lunatics are even useful, in small quantities.) That stack much can conquer any city on 1 or 2 turns, especially since the AI loves cannon fodder.

As for WH it is restricted to being only useful to illians, but since they can live in ice and nobody else can, it makes for a considerable defence. As much or more than the lizards swamps. Making this a viable religion for doviello is a thought though.

I never felt like Doviello were meant to live in ice though. Live in tundra or near fjords, yes. I always thought of them as more like ancient Picts.

 

[Jaded_Feriluce]

It's happened on quite a few games I played, even the the magic based ones don't seem to hook them up too often. I was fighting the amurites, they had some arch mages... but pastures over the nodes. I tend to add all the landmarks in now with my games just to make sure other civs get new mana at all... I turned off all the fera and wild mana options in my most recent game just to see if that had an effect on it. But in that game I'm kinda stuck in my home turf and can't get out to see if anyone hooked them up yet lol.

 

[Viatos]

also disagree that CoE is the least useful of the religions, I've always thought Emp was.

The Empyrean gets temples with a science bonus, mobile blindness platforms, and Chalid Astrakein. CoE get a bunch of stuff, let's face it, that doesn't really help you. Gibbon is nice, but he's not in the same weight category as Chalid.

Athey can live in ice and nobody else can, it makes for a considerable defence. As much or more than the lizards swamps.

Nothing is a better defense than lizard Jungle/Wetland setups. It is the worst thing in the world having to trudge through that, and it's pretty much unassailable until the endgame against a human player who understands how to use skirmishers.

I agree with Gangrin's religion tiering. There's no category, strategy, or civilization for which Runes of Kilmorph is not the best possible choice, really, excepting elves and FoL and the Illians and the White Hand. And that's more of a necessity thing. There is, conversely, no setup where Council of Esus is a good choice to make. At best, you're far enough ahead that it's neutral. Most of the time it hurts you.

Octopus Overlords relies heavily on your opponents building coastal, which human players generally don't, and has a pretty hard counter option against Good civilizations willing to invest in the religious tree. AV, ironically, doesn't have the same flaws because it doesn't rely nearly as heavily on undead/demonic shock troops. Octopus Overlords aren't bad, but if I'm thinking about conquest I still go RoK for the economic support and free Iron.

 

[Jheral]

The Empyrean gets temples with a science bonus, mobile blindness platforms, and Chalid Astrakein. CoE get a bunch of stuff, let's face it, that doesn't really help you. Gibbon is nice, but he's not in the same weight category as Chalid.



Nothing is a better defense than lizard Jungle/Wetland setups. It is the worst thing in the world having to trudge through that, and it's pretty much unassailable until the endgame against a human player who understands how to use skirmishers.

I agree with Gangrin's religion tiering. There's no category, strategy, or civilization for which Runes of Kilmorph is not the best possible choice, really, excepting elves and FoL and the Illians and the White Hand. And that's more of a necessity thing. There is, conversely, no setup where Council of Esus is a good choice to make. At best, you're far enough ahead that it's neutral. Most of the time it hurts you.

Octopus Overlords relies heavily on your opponents building coastal, which human players generally don't, and has a pretty hard counter option against Good civilizations willing to invest in the religious tree. AV, ironically, doesn't have the same flaws because it doesn't rely nearly as heavily on undead/demonic shock troops. Octopus Overlords aren't bad, but if I'm thinking about conquest I still go RoK for the economic support and free Iron.

Definately agreed on that - RoK is pretty much a no-brainer for me when I play (FoL holds a similar position when I'm playing elves). Which is really sad, because there are a lot of flavour reasons for me to like the other religions. But they're just not good enough most of the time, or broken in ways that makes them either boring or OP, depending on the circumstances.

I'd say that they would all need to be looked at for balance really, but that's not exactly a small task.

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

Regarding Empyrean: I feel like you all are seriously underestimating the power of Radiant Guards and Rathas. As mentioned, mobile blindness platforms. It doesn't take very many of them to immobilize an enemy stack, allowing catapults, withdrawal-heavy mounted, or mages to pick them apart at your leisure. Admittedly, this works far better against the AI than against a human player, but I haven't played enough multiplayer FfH to speak to that. Radiant Guards are, naturally, far stronger defensively than offensively. Empyrean doesn't really offer anything to a warmonger until you get to Chalid. We all know what happens then, of course. I'm not sure how useful the large-area Dispel that Vicars get is, really.

That said, I do agree with the fact that RoK is by far the strongest of the early religions, unless you're elven. I generally switch out of it in favor of Empyrean, Order, or even OO (for Hemah, pretty much) by the mid to late game however.

 

[Viatos]

Admittedly, this works far better against the AI than against a human player, but I haven't played enough multiplayer FfH to speak to that. Radiant Guards are, naturally, far stronger defensively than offensively. Empyrean doesn't really offer anything to a warmonger until you get to Chalid. We all know what happens then, of course. I'm not sure how useful the large-area Dispel that Vicars get is, really.\

It can be effective against human players who don't see it coming. The hard counter is to go for magic and rely on a combination of damage spells and summons (and if you're going Empyrean you probably can't afford to tech assassins without help, since you need Honor and then Chalid's line), which won't be blinded, but it's not easy to predict because it's a late-stage religion.

The large-area Dispel is really useful against human players and sometimes the AI.

 

[Calavente]

aren't blinded mages supposed to be unable to cast ?

 

[onemoreturnmike]

Make sure the "Frozen animations" option is disabled.

that took care of it thanks....

 

[onemoreturnmike]

On the ropic of Religions...I havent played AV. But I have played The Doviello and The White Hand, and where not quuite as effective as The Illians, they still were a monster.

My favorite Religion is Empy. I prefer builder strategies and have played them effectively as The Elohim, The Malakim and The Mazatl (which were pretty nigh unto unbeatable with Wyverns and Chalid.)

I played the Calabim as Decius and went Council of Esus and turned Goetia? into a Vanmpire at the earliest convenience. He and Valos were a staple in my conquest, with her leading the assaults, and he leading the defenses vs Counter attack

 

[rocklikeafool]

Octopus Overlords relies heavily on your opponents building coastal, which human players generally don't, and has a pretty hard counter option against Good civilizations willing to invest in the religious tree. AV, ironically, doesn't have the same flaws because it doesn't rely nearly as heavily on undead/demonic shock troops. Octopus Overlords aren't bad, but if I'm thinking about conquest I still go RoK for the economic support and free Iron.

How big are your armies that you need the massive economic support of RoK? FfH (and its modmods) are not designed for the human player to be building massive armies. You can easily conquer most AI civs with 2-3 stacks of 12 units. I can kind of see your point about iron, but I generally always have at least 1 source of iron anyway.

As for OO relying on enemeis being coastal, you're guaranteed that a lot of your opponents' cities are going to coastal (for the irrigation benefits and/or coastal resources). The exception would be a war against Khazad, since Dwarven mines need hills galore. By the time you've conquered their coastal cities, any AI civ will be practically crumbling as you've already smashed most of their army in your conquest of their coastal cities.

 

[A Moon]

How big are your armies that you need the massive economic support of RoK? FfH (and its modmods) are not designed for the human player to be building massive armies. You can easily conquer most AI civs with 2-3 stacks of 12 units. I can kind of see your point about iron, but I generally always have at least 1 source of iron anyway.

As for OO relying on enemeis being coastal, you're guaranteed that a lot of your opponents' cities are going to coastal (for the irrigation benefits and/or coastal resources). The exception would be a war against Khazad, since Dwarven mines need hills galore. By the time you've conquered their coastal cities, any AI civ will be practically crumbling as you've already smashed most of their army in your conquest of their coastal cities.

Which difficulties are you basing that on? And what about other human players?

 

[cthom]

alcinus went savage on me few minutes ago. i had a battlemage pop an air elemental to weaken him, then attacked with the battlemage. horrible noise then ctd
no save i'm afraid, i'll check for nearest autosave...

managed to get a save. the ctd happens if i try to kill alcinus.

View attachment Craig Turn_0587.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Gangrin]

How big are your armies that you need the massive economic support of RoK? FfH (and its modmods) are not designed for the human player to be building massive armies. You can easily conquer most AI civs with 2-3 stacks of 12 units. I can kind of see your point about iron, but I generally always have at least 1 source of iron anyway.

massive economic support is used to supply billion of conquered cities and keep research at 100%. Also, the thing about Mines of Gal-Dur is not the fact that they provide Iron, it's WHEN they do it. You can build Mines of Gal-Dur literally right after researching Bronze working. And combine it with Bambur, who have Enchantment I... Honestly, you don't even need catapults or priest or mages to soften the defenses - your axemen can take cities straight on

As for OO relying on enemeis being coastal, you're guaranteed that a lot of your opponents' cities are going to coastal (for the irrigation benefits and/or coastal resources). The exception would be a war against Khazad, since Dwarven mines need hills galore. By the time you've conquered their coastal cities, any AI civ will be practically crumbling as you've already smashed most of their army in your conquest of their coastal cities.

No, you are not guaranteed. It's question of luck. And in some cases (Malakim, Khazad, Austrin) you will be lucky if enemy have a coastal city at all. Moreover, large stacks of invaders often go on land not even once touching the coastline. I admit, tsunami does a lot of damage - but Ritualist's ring of fire does it too - not as much, yeah, but it doesn't need a coast nearby and it doesn't destroy your improvements. And AV got better temples, unique civic (nerfed over and over again, but still powerful), the Avatar and Stigmata of the unborn. And IIRC diseased corpses way better than a drown. At the end of the day, OO just slightly better at fighting near seas and way worse at everything else.