Forge or Courthouse, which first?

[mboettcher]

Very situational. If I'm Imperialistic I'll normally take the Oracle/CoL route and run 4 merchants in a +6F(2tile) city and use the GM to either bulb MC or settle. The 2nd GP will be from my capital and found a shrine. This allows me to hold off on currency for quite a bit.

This leads to a massive and affordable REX, early CHs, forges, OR, happiness, early CS, etc.

This is also a unique situation when taking oracle CoL over MC

The free religion that early is a very powerful tool. First Oracle gives an early prophet so an early religion w/ early shrine very strong, especially when having either rexed or conquered. The Oracle debate is not about Courthouses vs forges but rather free religion/shrine vs Forge (and possibly Colossus if have copper and/or ind)

Which comes down to the current religious state of the world


I think that a lot of the Courthouses/forge debate boils down to difficulty level. I think that Courthouses are only really valuable early iff you are playing on a high difficulty level with several cities where you be saving a lot more than 2 gpt, or if you are running an EE (which is the purpose of said game usually as far as I know).

If you are on emperor or above and org then why not whip several courthouses out in out lying cities.

Otherwise I say forge. I think a better debate is when one has acquired MC and are running a whip economy do you whip the granary or forge first. I ran into this issue when playing with Bismark, who gets both cheap. I wanted cities to be whip positive as soon as possible. (BTW I settled on granaries because after math you can get them in roughly one chop, usually with some left over so you can whip forge quickly. Not a bad choice either way though)

 

[Kerran]

You can't two whip sword and get another on Marathon due to scaling.

Still works for phants. Don't remember exactly [have not played marathon in gaes] but if HA can be done as two whip it might be very fast and effective.

HAs can be done, they cost 100 on Marathon and each whipped pop gives 90. Do note that this means you can't whip 2 pop if the city has a Forge. Also you might need to MM the first HA a bit so its first turn doesn't add more than 9.

Phants cost 120 (IIRC) so they give a bit more leeway (they are a good choice if the city has a forge though, since a 2pop whip then gives 180+45=225 )

 

[mboettcher]

Whipping armies is so powerful.

 

[Dirk1302]

Very situational. If I'm Imperialistic I'll normally take the Oracle/CoL route and run 4 merchants in a +6F(2tile) city and use the GM to either bulb MC or settle. The 2nd GP will be from my capital and found a shrine. This allows me to hold off on currency for quite a bit.

This leads to a massive and affordable REX, early CHs, forges, OR, happiness, early CS, etc.

That's ok of course but not really what i meant. I meant a rex where you have just researched writing and are 0% science after finishing the rush. Then currency or even alpha gets you out of the pit sooner than col.

 

[Crusher1]

Only situationally true. There are too many cicrumstances COL would be better, especially when I can immediately trade for alpha and currency.

 

[Gliese 581]

Currency is not always a tech the AI gets early.

But the main thing is it gives instant extra trade route and allows building wealth. Both of those factors are very beneficial if you're running a deficit at 0% research after rushing neighbour or rexing. COL requires some extra effort like getting a building or supporting merchants. I agree that with spiritual the latter is alot more appealing since you don't have to abandon slavery for a longer period in so doing.

Tech trading opportunities are of course a big factor in itself.

 

[Crusher1]

But the main thing is it gives instant extra trade route and allows building wealth. Both of those factors are very beneficial if you're running a deficit at 0% research after rushing neighbour or rexing

90% of my games I go alpha, currency, and in my walk through I mark special emphasize on it however, their are too many times where it is never the best route.

 

[Dirk1302]

^The higher the level the more currency nets you. On deity i usually don't do early rushes but i do try rexing to 8 cities early. Apart from what Gliese says currency nets you tons of money from tech/resource selling. Also the ais tend to get col early too on deity so trade value for col is not guaranteed there. I almost never go alpha btw on deity (neither do you i suspect).

I don't always self research currency, i often research some turns into it , then trade for aest or sometimes lit.

 

[huerfanista]

On the downside, at epic speed forges also screw up a very nice 2-pop axe whip that gives 44 overflow after putting 1 turn of 6 into production. This is great for accelerating early wonder builds, or for pumping out axes very quickly.

I'd say I take MC from oracle about 30% of the time, unless I have a coastal start. Taking MC from oracle when coastal pretty much guarantees you the Colossus, as well as early access to triremes (the only reliable barb galley counter early on). You don't even have to build it in the capital, since the AIs won't prioritize it once you have it. If you have a number of coastal cities the Colossus can generate a bunch of early to offset maintenance.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Currency is better than CoL for recovery, but it's worth noting that CoL goes quite late to the AIs, so it is trade bait ----> may be well worth getting earlier rather than through currency for trade value or religion.

As for whipping, whipping is not weaker on marathon, it is stronger. You can milk even MORE gold in overflow from a whipped warrior + a chop or so. Stronger military units can be 2 pop whipped, so you're only at an efficiency deficit for the earliest troops...

I'd normally go forge first because the bonuses tend to be better.

 

[Gliese 581]

Dirk: Agree about COL on deity. Aesthetics for example is still a tech you have plenty of time to get in time to trade around usually, only occasionally denied by a determined wonderhog, but COL I find is often spread to about 50% of the AIs by the time I get it even if I go for it early.

 

[mboettcher]

I don't know why this forum has drifted to a CoL, currency and MC comparison. That is entirely situational depending on empire size, traits, religions and city placement

 

[Gliese 581]

I don't know why this forum has drifted to a CoL, currency and MC comparison. That is entirely situational depending on empire size, traits, religions and city placement

Well most comparisons in this forum are. We try to work our way around it somehow. There's at least a number of different ideas proposed that people can try out even if they're never going to get a definitive answer.

 

[PhanTasmO]

Courthouses first for me. Almost always.

Same here.. always courthouses

 

[mboettcher]

True, True Gliese 581

 

[mboettcher]

I always liked the Granary/Forge whip economy especially for whipping out some markets and eventually courthouses.

Another Interesting trick with Oracle (which I think is ever so powerful) is that I think its easier to get MC on higher difficulties than CoL due to time to get prereqs. I say take MC, use some whipping and save the Great Prophet to bulb theology and get your religion there. USe it as a secondary religion to make some money. Obviously this requires 2 GProphets though so it has to be planned.

Bismark is really very powerful with this set of moves. Chopping out Oracle, taking MC and Chopping/overflow Granaries (expansive) into cheap forges. Then after economy starts to head south get currency, whip out markets in core econ cities, bulb theology


edit: sry guys. Forgot Priesthood is prereq for writing. However, writing is expensive with only one prereq so while MC is a riskier its not significantly harder to get due to BW synergy with wonder chopping.

 

[mboettcher]

The AP wonder is really nice for theology too. I don't always build it myself. I often simply trade it to somebody in my religious block who likes wonders and such and he'll build it. I just trade it around my religious block and it won't usually get traded out till after AP is guaranteed in Block and religious buddies all give up good techs for it

The theology bulb is really a strong synergy choice move

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You can't two whip sword and get another on Marathon due to scaling.

Still works for phants. Don't remember exactly [have not played marathon in gaes] but if HA can be done as two whip it might be very fast and effective.

Cats and HA's cost identical hammers and can both apply 2 pop whips on marathon.

Does NOBODY use warrior overflow in regular games? I used it a lot in MS Vicky to avoid strike after a rush/block session. It's not like walls but still! Especially on marathon, the conversion rate of warrior overflow is pretty favorable on marathon...

One of the things I still struggle with is the caste/slavery decision. I lean more towards caste now to get GPP sooner, but that does mean forgoing the whip. Mines or growing into workshops are the only answers then .

It's hard to come up with any during cottage spam if you're actually working the cottages, which tends to beat whipping the courthouse, so those cities survive on whatever (usually pop border, granary, library, market)...but for others the forge first brings the city to max potential sooner and that's huge.

 

[Shurdus]

I always liked the Granary/Forge whip economy especially for whipping out some markets and eventually courthouses.

Another Interesting trick with Oracle (which I think is ever so powerful) is that I think its easier to get MC on higher difficulties than CoL due to time to get prereqs. I say take MC, use some whipping and save the Great Prophet to bulb theology and get your religion there. USe it as a secondary religion to make some money. Obviously this requires 2 GProphets though so it has to be planned.

Bismark is really very powerful with this set of moves. Chopping out Oracle, taking MC and Chopping/overflow Granaries (expansive) into cheap forges. Then after economy starts to head south get currency, whip out markets in core econ cities, bulb theology


edit: sry guys. Forgot Priesthood is prereq for writing. However, writing is expensive with only one prereq so while MC is a riskier its not significantly harder to get due to BW synergy with wonder chopping.

Priesthood is a prereq for writing? Since when?

 

[Dirk1302]

Since always.