Forge or Courthouse, which first?

[huerfanista]

This is a terminology problem. "Prerequisite" typically means "something that is required" and priesthood is definitely NOT required for writing. It is, however, 1 of 3 predecessor techs that enable writing to be researched (pottery and AH are the other 2). Having any 1 of these 3 enables writing to be researched.

 

[Hereditary Rule]

Since always.

This is a terminology problem. "Prerequisite" typically means "something that is required" and priesthood is definitely NOT required for writing. It is, however, 1 of 3 predecessor techs that enable writing to be researched (pottery and AH are the other 2). Having any 1 of these 3 enables writing to be researched.

Now I get what he was saying.

 

[pfo]

Courthouse, hands down. Confucianism is a religion I do rush for, so I usually get courthouses first, which means my espionage takes off first, and my city maintenance is decreasing first for the next round of settler expansion. I find that this is key when REXing if you want to maintain a decent science level. Every city can use a courthouse, not every city can make use of a forge.

 

[Dirk1302]

^ With currency every city gets an extra traderoute, your whole empire profits from selling stuff for gold. Market in capital is often better than 3 courthouses together. I can maintain decent science levels without courthouses and almost every city can use a forge since you're either working mines or whipping.

Agree with Huerfanista about the terminology problem, just wanted to point out that nothing has changed in the requirements for writing, one out of three is enough, three out of three is better but often not practical..

 

[Artichoker]

I tend to prefer Courthouses over Forges, unless the maintenance is already small as with the capital or cities near the capital.

Actually, on average the two buildings are close to each other as far as the bonus they provide. However, Forges provide a bonus in the form of extra hammers, which I find less important during the critical stage of expansion when I have reached 5 cities and am about to gain a 6th city, for example.

In this critical part of the game, extra hammers typically used to 1) create more settlers or 2) create more military units are often counterproductive. In case 1), new cities, without adequate economic support, can often damage rather than help the economy. In case 2), the extra maintenance from more military units eats away at what little gold is typically available at this early stage of the game.

In case the bonus hammers from the Forge are used to create other economic buildings instead of units or settlers, the drawback here is the build time needed for those buildings. If the goal is to create economic buildings themselves (that help GNP rather than production), then why not create one right away?

 

[UncleJJ]

The original question is simple but the answer is not. It depends on the city and the situation.

In the late game under SP a courthouse is not even needed in many captured cities. I find myself building jails (to reduce WW) and a forge for happiness (usually worth 2 or 3) before a courthouse at this time.

In the late game under FM a courthouse is often essential and can save 10 gold or more per turn if colonial costs are high or corporations are being used in the city.

There is no simple answer.

 

[mrt144]

Its all in the numbers. Unless were talking distanced (from palace) production cities, you're overwhelmingly better off with a market. And the flow of the game usually goes through mercantilism, so you'll want the forge. Unless org, forge. Courthouses are only the final purse strings to the economy. They're the post-bank, corp-anticipating build.

Except the espionage benefits are pretty damn useful not to mention that 8 (in marathon or huge, i forget which) of them allow the Forbidden Palace which is pretty damn useful.

 

[Dirk1302]

In case the bonus hammers from the Forge are used to create other economic buildings instead of units or settlers, the drawback here is the build time needed for those buildings. If the goal is to create economic buildings themselves (that help GNP rather than production), then why not create one right away?

Because you get a distinct discount if you build the forge first, then whip the economic buildings. Economic buildings don't give you this discount on forges. The timeline in which a forge, then a courthouse is whipped is often no more than 10 turns, in that time the courthouse won't save you that much, the forge will give you 15 (or even 22 hammers with 3 pop whip) extra on courthouse whip, if you need a market later same thing.

 

[Crusher1]

10 turns

I disagree. I CH could easily save you 3-4 gpt per city for 10 or more cities. That could be over 400 gpt saved by getting CH up earlier which would help get the economy on track much quicker. How many times does a person even end up getting MC early? Even if you do an Oracle slingshot, with an aggressive expansion forges will do next to nothing for your economy when you are losing gpt from a massive REX. Alpha, currency, CoL serve much better.

I'm sure most people build CHs first, and for good reason.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I disagree. I CH could easily save you 3-4 gpt per city for 10 or more cities. That could be over 400 gpt saved by getting CH up earlier which would help get the economy on track much quicker. How many times does a person even end up getting MC early? Even if you do an Oracle slingshot, with an aggressive expansion forges will do next to nothing for your economy when you are losing gpt from a massive REX. Alpha, currency, CoL serve much better.

I'm sure most people build CHs first, and for good reason.

Yes, while I would often prefer a forge frequently it's a non-decision, I don't have MC yet.

It's not a gimme situation if you have access to both, but if you somehow do forges can help a lot.

 

[Crusher1]

It's not a gimme situation if you have access to both, but if you somehow do forges can help a lot.

I agree, but the situation doesn't happen too often, and when it does, it's normally with an Industrious leader who has taken an Oracle sling shot to MC.

With a non Industrious leader I don't see how forges first would ever be a good choice - and Industrious leaders who haven't built the Oracle, I don't see how forges before CHs would ever be a good idea. Without the oracle MC is very very expensive and do little for your economy during a heavy REX. As mentioned before, there are 3 better techs to have when you are trying to fix your economy.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I agree, but the situation doesn't happen too often, and when it does, it's normally with an Industrious leader who has taken an Oracle sling shot to MC.

With a non Industrious leader I don't see how forges first would ever be a good choice - and Industrious leaders who haven't built the Oracle, I don't see how forges before CHs would ever be a good idea. Without the oracle MC is very very expensive and do little for your economy during a heavy REX. As mentioned before, there are 3 better techs to have when you are trying to fix your economy.

I'm with you on this.

This is also the reason that 3.17 making barb galleys FOUR TIMES more likely was so annoying. Rather than sailing + BW, which allowed us access to a halfway decent anti-barb water unit before they actually attacked in pre-BTS, they made it so that getting anything that stops barb galleys cost-effectively would badly damage total tech rate anyway via much slower expansion recovery AND hiked up the barb rate. No thanks.

Fortunately, we have DanF5771 to teach us how to abuse game mechanics like the no-look spawnbust and the "haha it's 8 tiles in so you can't pillage it you stoooopid barb galley" rules. Now, naval defense is rarely a necessity at all, and barb galleys can just keep swimming out in the middle of no where until we feel like picking them off well after 500 AD. That's a LOT better for gameplay than a counter unit .

 

[Iranon]

I prefer Currency as the first solution to my economic woes, because it enables me to optimise for the long term (production first while important infrastructure is still to be built, economy later). If we assume that forges and courthouses and forges are the highest priority, forge first is faster to get us to both. If economic infrastructure follows (libraries, markets?), we'll get each of them earlier, meaning we catch up a little on the additional maintenance we paid.

Pretty much the only cases in which I make courthouses a high priority:

- exploiting a temporary military advantage, leaving me with more cities than is efficient (but I don't want to delay conquest because my edge will disappear). Whip courthouses to deal with the crippling maintenance, worry about everything else later. Something similar MIGHT happen if I power-rex because I fear being boxed in and there are no convenient choke points. Hasn't happened to me yet.
- I want to make espionage a cornerstone of my strategy
- I got CoL early for some strategic reason beyond general economy and my economy is strained enough that I can't get to Currency in a reasonable time without them (something-for-nothing tech, meaning snowball effects possibly even nicer than an early production boost)

*

@ Crusher1: Imo, there are few problems that can't be solved with more hammers. Researching the entire religious line and building the Oracle for Metal Casting usually doesn't take more citizenturns than researching it by hand. Quite possible for non-Industrious leaders although simply viable instead of a huge advantage. The only question is: Do I have something more pressing to do (secure the Great Lighthouse, block off several AIs, kill someone, research many different resource techs beause I got a very mixed bag).

As I have said, I tend to view Currency as the primary recovery tech rather than Code of Laws which allows me to build wealth meaning forges help there as well, in case my economy is truly strained and selling stuff isn't enough.

 

[Crusher1]

@Iranon

I think some people are missing out on my fundamental point. At a point in time when I am REXing and may even be losing gpt MC and forges are a poor choice and shouldn't be my first priority. I don't need MC because I need to fix my economy. In the time it would have taken me to research metal casting I could already have researched both Alpha and Currency (sped along from building research).

So why in the world would I want to research MC when I could already have 2 key techs helping fix my economy, before I even start my first forge.

Now, once I already have alpha, currency, col, and mc, a forge will almost always come before a CH.

As I have said, I tend to view Currency as the primary recovery tech rather than Code of Laws

As do I.

 

[Dirk1302]

I agree, but the situation doesn't happen too often, and when it does, it's normally with an Industrious leader who has taken an Oracle sling shot to MC.

With a non Industrious leader I don't see how forges first would ever be a good choice - and Industrious leaders who haven't built the Oracle, I don't see how forges before CHs would ever be a good idea. Without the oracle MC is very very expensive and do little for your economy during a heavy REX. As mentioned before, there are 3 better techs to have when you are trying to fix your economy.

In your previous post you mentioned 10 + cities when indeed courthouses save more than 2 gpt, 3-4 gpt on average would indeed be a closer to the mark. But 10 cities is really a lot, while i try to expand a lot asap10 cities is really hard early , 6-8 seems more realistic around say 250 AD. But ok 10 cities, courthouses first, have them all 10 turns earlier ~350 gold. Now have the forges 10 turns earlier, 8 H/city is not a ridiculous estimate so 200 normal H saved. 10 CH's whipped for 2 pop (it's even better if more pop) = 10 * 15 = 150 H saved. So i gain 350 hammers. As usually it depends on the empire which is best. These calculations tend to get vague and fuzzy very soon if not applied to some concrete situation. Your remark that forges first can't ever be a good choice first however seems grossly exaggerated to me.

Note that this thread implies that you have col and MC. It's not about what to research first, then i agree that MC generally rates lower than col and certainly currency or alpha. With MC and one of the conversion techs alpha/currency you can always convert forge output back to gold/science.

 

[Crusher1]

@ Dirk

In the majority of my games that I REX I am losing 10+ gpt, sometimes over 20. If I chose to research MC instead of Alpha/Currency how would ~Xamount of extra hammers help me fix my economy?

Your remark that forges first can't ever be a good choice first however seems grossly exaggerated to me.

That wasn't my statement.

6-8 seems more realistic around say 250 AD. But ok 10 cities

I have a post and screen shots in a REX thread where I REXd to 9 cities by 750 BC with Asoka on Immortal following the Alphabet/Currency tech path. 10 cities by 1AD is quite easy.......matter of fact, I'll find it and post it here.

It ended up being Fredrick: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314493&page=4 I had +18 gpt at 200 Bcish with no land and ended up teching Asthetics to drama !? Who knows. But, if I wasn't so silly I should have teched COL. If I had more land I could easily have produced more settlers to coincide with the completion of COL and settled around 15 total cities shortly after 1AD. My point? W/out an oracle slingshot MC would be a poor choice and I wouldn't have been able to afford nearly as many cities. Hell, even with a sling shot and Industrious you would be hard pressed to make forges a better choice than such a massive horizontal REX.

Using similar tactics I have had over 20 cities by 1AD on larger maps. I just don't see where anyone can find room to fit in MC and forges until after CoL during a REX.

 

[Dirk1302]

I hadn't read your post above mine, it seems we agree that with conversion forges are at least as good as courthouses. If you only have col and MC (indeed almost impossible since oracle gives only 1 tech) and you're losing money at 0% then courthouses first is the only option since 1 hammer < 1 commerce then.

But i think the question is what goes first in a fairly normal situation not an extreme rex.

 

[mboettcher]

@Crusher1

I agree on this. It is usually a long, long time b4 I end up with MC if I'm not Industrious/oracle

I consider CoL to be an exotic and expensive tech early and I'll just take currency too after that b4 I go for MC. Workshops Aren't useful till guilds anyway and building Colossus would probably be prohibitive if not taken early and with copper (that way I can pump overflow here and there into colossus as ind w/ copper and build it between workers and whatever else and still get it early with out worrying about the comp beating me). Also Forges are really expensive if not Ind.

With CoL an early religion can change the game, courthouses aren't prohibitively expensive for rex and ususally mean 3-4 gpt and 2 espionage points (which on a rex add up fast.). THe EP shouldn't be underestimated. When gaining 20 or so a turn and targeted solely at the best teching civ at the time might mean a couple of decent techs.

Also markets are expensive but Currency's +1 trade routes helps A LOT and market only need to be built in a few high value cities early on.

The exceptions are a few leaders. Bismark (exp,ind combo for granaries=>forge is incredibly powerful in a rex I discovered in my last game), HC (ind, colossus for financial sea, pottery needed anyway for cottages. He doesn't count in discussions anyway...), Stalin (ind,since rushing is better than rexing for him), maybe De Gaulle (charismatic happiness for strong whipping and whipping charismatic armies) and any Finanicial leader with marble and copper for colossus commerce sea.

 

[Deep_Blue]

Shop forests to get courthouse in every new city ASAP otherwise your economy will struggle with expanding, I only build forges in city with decent number of hammers. What is the point of building a forge in a city with 6 hammers that will give me +25% = a grand total of 1.5 hammers

 

[Dirk1302]

Whipping 2+pop for 15+ hammers