Full Patch Notes for December Patch

[ds61514]

Sorry if I should know this, but who is valkarion and how did he test this? Is he a dev, or tester? Did the patch come out already? What am I missing?

Jon Shafer has also confirmed that total building happiness can never exceed total city population.

 

[generalwar]

Can't wait for the patch, I'm so excited, I think I'll spend bigger part of my winter holidays playing civ 5 if these patches will balance it that good as it seems it will.

 

[firecat318]

Only 1-3 more days

 

[Zyxpsilon]

I doubt it, 2 of those are completely imaginary and the 3rd makes absolutely no sense on a random map.

Edit: I'd expect that those achievements refer to the scenario that will ship with the DLC.

I stand corrected but will certainly check it all out once we update.

 

[Sneaks]

You're right in that India got stronger, but I disagree with your other points.

Egypt definitely got stronger. There's at least 5 National Wonders that every empire is going to want now which benefit from the +20% wonder production speed. Secondly they usually went for Tradition, which received a minor buff. (Slowpoke has shown why this isn't a major buff - 1 gold per 2 population is laughable and nobody in their right mind would grab this bonus. Should have been +1 gold per 1 population at least). Just think of how crazy large their capitol would be with the change to food requirements and the +50% food growth, and now imagine that with the National Library and a bunch of the other national wonders. Compare this to civs that normally went for Liberty and are now feeling a nerf (ie France, China, etc).

Secondly, their UB isn't meant for spamming size 2 cities. Instead they can go down the culture track for science and still grab a happiness bonus. Most civs need to grab colosseums to go beyond a certain size. I think this is especially true now that it will be easier to get to your happiness cap (less food requirements, less happiness bonuses).

Siam got *weaker*. They are still a good civ, but their 50% bonus won't yield as much food now. This nerf was probably needed for them though, as they were getting pretty obscene amounts of food already. I don't think their Wat is all that special given how much later it comes out. This could play out different though, since everyone's going to want universities for scientists.


Babylon was a warmonger pre-patch too. They were tier 1 due to easy easy Steel slingshots (or in some cases riflemen slingshots). The thing is they could get 3 Great Scientists very early, and are now limited to 1. If you go for war as Babylon, you're basically sacrificing half your UA for the majority of the game as you won't be able to produce a lot of scientists. I think Babylon's going to be forced to go for universities.

I think Egypt got marginally better, but that is about it. National Wonders have always been a situational build. Having 20% production on 2 extra buildings is not going to be a gamechanger to me. Tradition is really not any better as a tree, UNLESS the landed elite policy is empire-wide. I agree that Burial Tomb was slightly buffed and will certainly help their cause, though their already medicore UU was nerfed.

As for Siam, they got better. How better really depends on whether the University has 2 slots now or not. Basically, their UA allows them to continue using CSs at pre-patch levels. That is going to be even more useful given that the changes to happiness really mean it won't hurt to let your cities boom up to size 4 faster.

Babylon is certainly a top contender for the best early warmonger as well as science victory. Overall, it probably was pulled back towards the pack a bit, but thanks to that early GS, it is still elite. The buffed walls suddenly look a lot nicer now that they will not have a maint. cost either.

Speaking of defensive buildings, Mughal Fort might actually be the secret winner here. In any game that will play out til Modern, a UB that gives defense, gold, and culture is pretty sexy. Along with Gandhi's UA getting wildly powered up with this patch, he is probably going to be king of the hill.

Other possible winners:
Germany - Given the increased importance of iron as well as Civil Service smack dab in the Education beeline, Landsknecht mass rushes remain a cheap alternative

Songhai - The UU certainly looks a lot better

Arabia - Trading for luxuries might actually be worth it now given the happiness changes.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Which are the 3 new natural wonders?

I suspect Lake Titicaca will be one of them, because it is mentioned in the Civilopedia without being in the game.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Judging from the Steam Achievements listing i'm guessing;

Fountain of Youth, El Dorado, Route to the Orient -- related, somehow, maybe?!

Oh, wow. Shades of the original Colonization game. I loved that one.

 

[Txurce]

As for Siam, they got better. How better really depends on whether the University has 2 slots now or not. Basically, their UA allows them to continue using CSs at pre-patch levels. That is going to be even more useful given that the changes to happiness really mean it won't hurt to let your cities boom up to size 4 faster.

Agreed. This is why they improved even as their SA was nerfed.

 

[Dermo]

Probably Niagara Falls or Victoria Falls as well.
Grand Canyon?

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Judging from the Steam Achievements listing i'm guessing;

Fountain of Youth, El Dorado, Route to the Orient -- related, somehow, maybe?!

Oh, wow. Shades of the original Colonization game. I loved that one.

Oops! Sorry.

 

[Celevin]

Talking strictly about Siam's UA and not their UB, I still disagree and think it was nerfed with the same logic that I think Babylon was nerfed.

Both civs have a bonus that multiplies the effect of a mechanic. The mechanic was nerfed. I think it's a trap to use the line of thinking "but that mechanic is still good for them, while it was nerfed into oblivion for others". Instead, the logic should be "each civ lose x power from that mechanic being nerfed. Siam lost more than x." (apply the same logic for Babylon).

Just think how much Siam got from Maritimes before and after patch, and compare it to how much other civs got from Maritimes before and after patch. Siam lost more total food.

Tradition is really not any better as a tree

I'm unsure about this. I think Tradition improved. Yes, some components of Tradition got weaker, but some other parts have gotten much stronger. I'm mainly looking at the +50% growth in capitol. That bonus is now the equivalent of having a hospital at the start of the game, in the city that receives the most benefit from Maritimes, and generally has the best starting area. I think we're going to see really large capitols for Tradition civs, and maybe even a bit of Civ4's feeling that one city is worth half your empire. A Tradition capitol with the National College will really shine early game. It can be built *so* early and will provide so much science. +5 science and +50% more on a city that will probably reach size 12 by Classical? Yes please.

I wouldn't balance the tree at all like Firaxis did, and I think it's a wrong way to go to put so much emphasis on the capitol, but the implications could lead to a pretty strong Tradition empire.

Mughal Fort might actually be the secret winner here.

Yeah, forgot about that... I think we can agree that India went from "maybe tier 1" to "definitely tier 1". I find it funny that India was one of the biggest abusers of ICS, and after the patch is getting buffed even more. Happiness influences everything else in this game.

I still strongly disagree about Babylon. I could care less about one Great Scientist compared to most of the other UA's in this game. Babylon will be about surviving until Universities now, which it should jet for using its Great Scientist. Both its UB and UU assist in this. If you go for the war route, you're going to notice the only thing that you have going for you over another warlike person is 1 free tech. Compare that to Japan's UU, or China's UU, or anything else warlike, and it's really crappy. I don't think Babylon is nearly as competitive with either strategy as it used to be.

 

[bryanw1995]

Can't wait for the patch, I'm so excited, I think I'll spend bigger part of my winter holidays playing civ 5 if these patches will balance it that good as it seems it will.

I'm excited to see how the city defense buffs play out. what is going to be the max defense in a size 25 city with freedom + all defensive buildings? right now it's around 100, a bit more with the kremlin, not exactly awe-inspiring to a modern armor with 2 promos or any sort of air/artillery attack. how aggressively will they ramp up the city defenses by age? how much of a bonus to city health regen will they put in the city defense buildings? What about city size as a defense bonus as a % bonus to city defense? maybe something like 0% bonus up to size 5, 10% bonus from 6-8, then 20% from 9-11, etc etc. could make things really interesting when attacking very large opponent cities. I'm laughing right now on an immortal balance-combined 4 corners game. india has only 2 cities left, but one of them is 60 combat power in the late medieval/early renaissance time frame. egypt has demolished his army but can't even put a dent in the capitol, and he can't get by the capitol to attack india's other city (which is 45 defense anyway). is 30hp + 60 combat power > 20 hp + 45 combat power+ heals 4hp/turn instead of 1? I dunno, but it should be fun to find out.

@celevin: siam loses some food, but if the maritimes food still scales upwards from +3/+1 to +4/+2 for allies at renaissance then they'll only lose 1 food/city in both capitol and other cities, which is the same loss that others have post-renaissance. the nerf will hurt them more pre-renaissance, but how many maritimes were you getting on immortal/deity pre-renaissance anyway? one or two max probably, right? so at worst it is a very slight nerf to one of the best UA's in the original game. but now they've changed the game a bit to favor builders, so their UA is even more useful than a builder UA was before. The only reason they didn't go to #1 overall civ imho is the -50% vs cities that their siamephants get.

@celevin: babylon as a warmonger will be more situational now. 400 beakers in that time of the game shouldn't be more than 15 turns or so. in some games martin is right and that 15 turns will win the battle/war for babylon, in some games it won't make any difference at all. if nothing else at least now you'll want to go straight for iw to see if you have any iron...

 

[Celevin]

@celevin: siam loses some food, but if the maritimes food still scales upwards from +3/+1 to +4/+2 for allies at renaissance then they'll only lose 1 food/city in both capitol and other cities, which is the same loss that others have post-renaissance. the nerf will hurt them more pre-renaissance, but how many maritimes were you getting on immortal/deity pre-renaissance anyway? one or two max probably, right? so at worst it is a very slight nerf to one of the best UA's in the original game. but now they've changed the game a bit to favor builders, so their UA is even more useful than a builder UA was before. The only reason they didn't go to #1 overall civ imho is the -50% vs cities that their siamephants get.

I plan to grab all Maritimes on a map by Ren, even on a large map. Once the Ren bonuses hit, no city needs farms or any other crappy food tiles. Heck, I usually try to grab 3 Maritimes by Medieval. I find they pay for themselves so fast, that they're usually my first priority.

If this argument was about the strength of the UA in the game right now, I agree, Siam has a very strong ability utilizing an overpowered mechanic. They are probably tier 2. But this argument is about how hard it's UA was hit by the nerf. Was Siam hit harder by the maritime nerf than other civs?

but now they've changed the game a bit to favor builders, so their UA is even more useful than a builder UA was before

I've gotta think more about this line. See, Maritimes mainly benefit people who went ICS, so I have to think they are less important now in a catch-22 kind of way. If anything I think Siam's ability will be used more for cultural cities states, and we'll see 1 city empires with them more frequently.

 

[Sneaks]

If this argument was about the strength of the UA in the game right now, I agree, Siam has a very strong ability utilizing an overpowered mechanic. They are probably tier 2. But this argument is about how hard it's UA was hit by the nerf. Was Siam hit harder by the maritime nerf than other civs?

I am still not so sure I agree with this. I fully get that Siam will lose more than any other civ in terms of overall drop in food resources. This will really whack them when comparing it to pre-patch ICS utility. What I see though is after we finish thinking about nerf or buff. Under the new rules, is Siam a top contender? I would argue it is given the Wat buff (once again no Univ. change dependent) and the fact that strategies calling for fewer (20 or less) but larger (all at size 8) cities will probably be much more common. My thought process is wandering down the idea of Theocracy+Theater+Col in these cities = happyneutral. all speculative at this point, obviously. In such a scenario, civs that provide an earlier growth lead will be quite powerful. Siam does so, while still also giving pretty solid bonuses to culture, science, and a UU that isn't half bad.

I've gotta think more about this line. See, Maritimes mainly benefit people who went ICS, so I have to think they are less important now in a catch-22 kind of way. If anything I think Siam's ability will be used more for cultural cities states, and we'll see 1 city empires with them more frequently.

I am not so sure 1 city empires will be that much more common. Down the road, OCC will still have massive tech disparity issues on Deity/Immortal. However, that does make me reconsider the viability of a 1 city, many puppets strategy for easy national wonders.

 

[Celevin]

I am not so sure 1 city empires will be that much more common. Down the road, OCC will still have massive tech disparity issues on Deity/Immortal. However, that does make me reconsider the viability of a 1 city, many puppets strategy for easy national wonders.

I think until Puppets are nerfed (and the less important cultural city states are changed), we're definitely going to see this as a continuing trend. I've gotten 1800 AD culture wins with no selling cities exploit using a 1-city empire, proving this is possible post-patch as well. One of these wins was actually with Siam.

I think the points we're arguing over are extremely close. Both pre and post patch, we agree Siam will be a very strong civ, I just think it will see a slight nerf and you a slight buff.


1 city + puppets (ie a 1 city empire in my definition) will actually see a buff post-patch. It's always been strong, but with the new national wonders, I think it'll be even better. I'm still really surprised that puppets didn't get nerfed to hell, and I think it's the #1 thing that needs to be changed.

 

[Marshall Thomas]

Will farms (and high food tiles in general) be stronger with the new patch? If so, how? Thanks in advance

 

[Louis XXIV]

Not really except in proportion to maritime city-states.

 

[No_such_reality]

Originally Posted by da_Vinci
It is not just a local vs. global issue ... it seems that they may be changing happiness from a commodity (you have a happy account, with assets and liabilities) to a count of happy citizens, at least some of the time (but not all of the time, so now it is a mixed concept).

And then, it seems that some of the happiness buildings are essentially now not happiness granters but unhappiness removers (if extra citizen =1 unhappy, and benefit capped at # of citizens then essentially it can only remove unhappiness).

My question on the limit is, with 3 citizens and a col plus a circus, do those two buildings grant 3 happy or 6 happy?

valkarion confirmed that in this case you would only get the 3 happy.

So number of cities is now limited by Wonders, Luxuries and Social Policies.

Did they buff any Ancient era buildings? Coliseums come out with Construction which is three techs deep, standard settings 190 beakers of research on beeline. Until that point, you have your game level starting happiness and any resources. Luckily mining is on the way, so if you have Gold, silver, gems, you can exploit them.

Just getting mining is 35 beakers, plus a worker build, plus a mine build and likely a turn or movement to the hill tile.

Otherwise, if you have Ivory or Furs, you're going 90 beakers in to Trapping, via Animal Husbandry. Plus a worker, plus the turns to build the camp.

Pottery becomes more key, being on pathway to both Calendar and Sailing which can be used for Plantation and Fishing Boats.

Whales or Pearls and you need to go Fishing boat leads you 90 beakers in, plus build time for the work boat.

Calendar is a 105 beakers in but unlocks a flotilla or resources: Cotton, Dyes, Incense, silk, Spices, Sugar and Wine. Plus, I think 6 turns for a Plantation build. Plus an existing worker.

What are the default happiness settings for game level? What is the penalty for unhappiness again, nearly stalled growth and combat penalties?

The library comes out at writing, which is off of Pottery. But it costs 55 beakers. So until you get a library built you just have the default science from population.

Looks like number crunching time of population growth, beaker count and basic happiness per city, because it seems like early expansion and bum rushing your neighbor with warriors may have received a veiled nerf.

Also curious if we'll see a 'unhappiness' stall in the very early game particularly at Prince and above? (Checked when I got home, not a issue. Looks like we peg at a starting 6 (base 9).)

 

[Pouakai]

I suspect Lake Titicaca will be one of them, because it is mentioned in the Civilopedia without being in the game.

Really, where?

 

[Yzman]

Hmm so if I understand this correctly after thinking about it, won't this seriously limit the AI having crazy happiness bonuses? I can only assume they get those by building happiness buildings in every city with high priority. Now that the only thing that can provide excess happiness is policies/wonders/luxuries, it should reduce how much they can be ahead.