Future of Orbis - Civ5 incarnation discussion

[Zdarg]

My point is the modding community shouldn't be expected to fix a game.

Why not? If modders are ready to fix things, for their own fun, and players are ready to play mods, who are you to object? What is your place in the process?

I say again, the modders as far as I know don't get paid.

Money isn't everything. Modders get their fun and they get community's respect.
And if you think it isn't enough, what prevents you from sending money to a mod maker?

 

[Fluesterwitz]

Why not? If modders are ready to fix things, for their own fun, and players are ready to play mods, who are you to object? What is your place in the process?

As a paying consumer I want a product that works as announced. If I like it enough, I will then be willing to pay again for additional content. Unfotunately I cannot expect this to be the case.
If modders enhance a product for me, then I am grateful for this bonus. As these modders are not obligated to do so, I should not need to depend on their voluntary contribution to make the product perform to specs in the first place.

Me pay full price, me wanna worrking game.

Of course I don't speak for Arkham, I just happen to share his sentiments.

 

[Zdarg]

As a paying consumer I want a product that works as announced.

Sorry, but it's a problem between you and 2k. Personally, I don't care at all about what you and Arkham want and what you don't. And I don't think I should care.
I'd suggest a compromise: I won't discourage you from demanding "ready product" from 2k, whilst you won't discourage modders from making their own ready product and me from awaiting this. Ok?

 

[Kalina]

Why not? If modders are ready to fix things, for their own fun, and players are ready to play mods, who are you to object? What is your place in the process?

There is difference between making things even better or adding new dimension to game (like many mods did, just to mention FFH or Rhye's) and fixing things to make product usable. While I don't consider ciV bad game and for me it isn't unplayable (though I understand why some people consider it unplayable), I certainly wouldn't be happy with new car if it was broken and it was expected that workshop community will fix it I just don't see any reason why we should treat games in other way then cars.

 

[flitz]

Sorry, but it's a problem between you and 2k. Personally, I don't care at all about what you and Arkham want and what you don't. And I don't think I should care.
I'd suggest a compromise: I won't discourage you from demanding "ready product" from 2k, whilst you won't discourage modders from making their own ready product and me from awaiting this. Ok?

The problem is because developers/publishers sometimes take on your attitude, the quality of released games suffers in general. If modders are relied on to 'fix' already released games, what motivation is there to make a good product in the first place.
This is (one of) the reason(s) why we're getting sometimes sandbox games that turn out more as a modder's playground sometimes rather than an enjoyable and well-thoughout game in the first place.

 

[Valkrionn]

Which is perfectly fine... IF that is what the game is designed for.

 

[Kalina]

Which is perfectly fine... IF that is what the game is designed for.

... and potential customers were informed about it

 

[Valkrionn]

Well, that's part of the "if that is what the game is designed for" IMO.

 

[flitz]

Which is perfectly fine... IF that is what the game is designed for.

And taking it back to the example of Civilization, would you say that this should be a sandbox game ? Because I don't think so. I'm not against sandbox games in general but at least for Civ I wouldn't like this approach.

 

[Zdarg]

And taking it back to the example of Civilization, would you say that this should be a sandbox game ? Because I don't think so. I'm not against sandbox games in general but at least for Civ I wouldn't like this approach.

I am not completely sure what you all mean by "sandbox game", but I definitely want CiV to be mod development toolkit mostly. That's exactly what I paid for. I wouldn't buy CiV as a game.

 

[Valkrionn]

To be perfectly honest, I'm with Zdark here. I never enjoyed vanilla civ for more than a game or two; The attraction was always the mods.

It actually surprises me how much I like CiV in it's own right; It really does have the potential to be a great game.

Edit: Just to be clear, I don't think CiV is a sandbox game even though that is all I'm interested in. A large portion of players never get into the mods, and the vanilla game has to be able to stand on it's own feet.

 

[civ_king]

If Civ V is more mod-able than Civ IV and by the first expansion pack they have ironed out many kinks I shall eagerly purchase it

 

[Valkrionn]

It is more moddable (excluding the fact that we haven't received the source yet, as we know it's coming; Had to wait with Civ4 as well) by far. Interface design is INCREDIBLY easier, for one thing. The Lua scripting is also far more powerful, particularly if you make use of the SaveUtils mod; Enables you to store large amounts of data, entire tables. Between Lua and SQL, you can add entirely new xml fields and have them take effect. In Civ4, this required DLL work, and far more of it.

 

[civ_king]

It is more moddable (excluding the fact that we haven't received the source yet, as we know it's coming; Had to wait with Civ4 as well) by far. Interface design is INCREDIBLY easier, for one thing. The Lua scripting is also far more powerful, particularly if you make use of the SaveUtils mod; Enables you to store large amounts of data, entire tables. Between Lua and SQL, you can add entirely new xml fields and have them take effect. In Civ4, this required DLL work, and far more of it.

So once the DLL comes it it will be insanely moddable?

 

[Valkrionn]

I hope so.

 

[Humakty]

My main gripe against civ 5 is its all potential, and nothing done.

Oh, and knowing of 2K games game development policy (ever played one of their other strategy title ? Much to learn there), I don't think support to modding community will be the top priority, but surely I'm mistaken.

 

[Valkrionn]

You very much are mistaken, in that area t the very least. Modding is a core aspect of Civ5, and there is a developer whose main duty is integrating modding capabilities.

 

[Ahwaric]

You very much are mistaken, in that area t the very least. Modding is a core aspect of Civ5, and there is a developer whose main duty is integrating modding capabilities.

Just dropped by...
In response to the discussion (which I had no time to read, so mostly Valkrionn's post):
Civ V has a great potential. But the current state of things, especially modding, makes it very hard to enjoy.
There are some aspects that are simply non-moddable. I.e. without a workaround, it is not possible to add a new luxury resource. And whole AssignStartingPlots.lua is a nightmare. Also, last patch was advertised as allowing mods to replace base game files. Well, the game no longer crashes - it simply ignores the changes, at least for me. Loading mods from ingame menu (with the warning screens...) is another bad idea. It will take ages to load a mod with a lot of graphics.
I could go on and on. In short - I believe the game has a potential to be a great modding tool. But currently it is a mess (it only requires to take a look at some xml files to confirm it) designed to allow easy creataing small mods - but making ones like FfH2 next to impossible. When (and if) it will be as good as advertised - we will see. I certainly hope it will be soon.

On the other hand, I do not think the base game is as bad as some people say.

Ok, enough of that. I dropped by mostly to say that I am leaving to Marrakesh today to get some holidays. I am attachnig the current state of Orbis II (save for the art, not so important and takes a lot of space). If anyone wants to teake a look or use something, be my guest. Of course, making separate mod based on the whole package if forbidden That is, unless you will not hear from me in a month time. That would mean that I had some problems, i.e. my girlfriend sold me into slavery...

Take care guys!

 

[Valkrionn]

Just dropped by...
In response to the discussion (which I had no time to read, so mostly Valkrionn's post):
Civ V has a great potential. But the current state of things, especially modding, makes it very hard to enjoy.
There are some aspects that are simply non-moddable. I.e. without a workaround, it is not possible to add a new luxury resource. And whole AssignStartingPlots.lua is a nightmare. Also, last patch was advertised as allowing mods to replace base game files. Well, the game no longer crashes - it simply ignores the changes, at least for me. Loading mods from ingame menu (with the warning screens...) is another bad idea. It will take ages to load a mod with a lot of graphics.
I could go on and on. In short - I believe the game has a potential to be a great modding tool. But currently it is a mess (it only requires to take a look at some xml files to confirm it) designed to allow easy creataing small mods - but making ones like FfH2 next to impossible. When (and if) it will be as good as advertised - we will see. I certainly hope it will be soon.

On the other hand, I do not think the base game is as bad as some people say.

Ok, enough of that. I dropped by mostly to say that I am leaving to Marrakesh today to get some holidays. I am attachnig the current state of Orbis II (save for the art, not so important and takes a lot of space). If anyone wants to teake a look or use something, be my guest. Of course, making separate mod based on the whole package if forbidden That is, unless you will not hear from me in a month time. That would mean that I had some problems, i.e. my girlfriend sold me into slavery...

Take care guys!

I don't really see how it is difficult, personally... I've been fairly prolific with my mods, even if most people don't get a chance to see them.

I agree with many of your points though. AssignStartingPlots is a horrible horrible mess; I've said before that sometimes it is better to sacrifice a small amount of accuracy for gameplay benefit. That file allows for huge levels of control in how resources are placed, but in doing so makes resource mods next to impossible; We need to go back to the old tag-based system.

Are you using the "Import into VFS" option? If your changes are not taking effect, that is generally what must be done.

 

[civ_king]

My main gripe against civ 5 is its all potential, and nothing done.

Oh, and knowing of 2K games game development policy (ever played one of their other strategy title ? Much to learn there), I don't think support to modding community will be the top priority, but surely I'm mistaken.

I think with BtS and FFH2 Firaxis learned that supporting Mods was very important, they probably got thousands of sales from FFH2.

Also I may learn Lua just so I can cobble together a Mac version of Orbis (or at least implement as much as possible)