Germany and Ottos got buffed

[GenjiKhan]

We should wait to see which nerf Ls receives. Maybe that nerf is only -1 or -2 strengh. but if both units has the same strengh, then samurai is still better than minuteman(especially b/c bushido itself is better than +1 sight and ignored terrain penalty).

Cossacks eat japanse units

Cossacks are the keshiks of the renaissance era(and probably industrial era too if you upgrade them to tanks)

 

[elprofesor]

Ok, ok, I didn't want to hurt any sensibilities

Sorry if the damage explanation bit insulted you, I just wanted to inform others reading this thread. I didn't mean to sound condescending.

Waitaminnit here. It sort of sounds like you ARE saying it's easier to win with the Americans than the Japanese. ?? That's just silly.

Winning with the Japanese is easier because they can abuse their advantages at war, which will always be the easiest way to secure the lead and, ultimately, the victory. Extra sight is cool for :
·frail units, because you won't get surprised by mounted units;
·siege, since it's easier for them to spot whatever they want to bombard;
·fast units, since it helps you hunt down those pesky ranged units.
For early wars, longswordmen (or mandekalu cavalry, in your case) suffice, and they fear no one, so who cares what's around ya! Extra sight only means something when you can choose which of your units is going to attack each of its units.

I didn't say the Americans weren't one of the top 3 civs, I said they're one of the bottom 3 civs.

I know, I know; I meant that I don't think their da best, just strong enough to compete and pose a real threat (not as an AI, obviously; AI can't use their UA or UUs, if they get there, properly). I'd have to play MP to know for sure, but I'd guess that their extra sight "shines" there.

And I'm a senior game programmer. I know how combat works, plus we all end up fighting against these guys most games. To win against the Japanese, you need a significant numerical or qualitative advantage over what you'd need attacking a similar sized American force. Bushido also does give you a defensive advantage, it causes the attacker to take significantly higher casualties, they're a total pain in the butt.

The AI doesn't know what to do with extra sight. Hell, it doesn't know what to do with its regular sight. USA AI has basically no advantage until B-17.

Bushido is a solid/very good UA, and you don't need a very clever AI to use it properly: get your heaviest units (i.e., their UU, the samurai) in there and do some damage. I'd even say that the computer uses Bushido better passively (i.e., when attacked) than actively (i.e., attacking), because for taking down a city, you need fairly healthy troops, while you can always retreat and heal for a couple of turns in your own land, waiting for the invasion to lose its momentum against your city walls.

Manifest Destiny, on the other hand, is only good for invasions, since you already see everything in your land; and well executed AI invasions (other than warrior rushes) are fairly rare, they usually rely on numbers to pull them off correctly.

Try to remember the last time you were invaded by a massive AI army; now recall how you could maximize what each of your units did thanks to knowing where every enemy unit was.
Compare this to the last time you tackled a runaway civ wannabe (pre-industrial; I know you like later wars, but I'm trying to make a point); you probably just made a push towards its capital with longswords/mandekalu/rifles, and waited for a counterattack whose force and direction you ignored, sometimes with "heavy" damage inflicted to your army (I'm assuming your military isn't 2 eras ahead his).

I value this information highly; I'm not sure if it's better or not that dealing extra damage with damaged units, but they must be close.

I don't think you're being very objective here. (Edit: on this topic only, not in general.)

I have a weak spot for lost causes
Next post: the Ottomans!

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Cossacks are the keshiks of the renaissance era(and probably industrial era too if you upgrade them to tanks)

I really have to try Russia sometime... Maybe I'll get over my "-50% penalty against mounted" trauma...

 

[bronzeager]

i would be VERY surprised if the LS nerf was more than -2. Bringing it down to 16 seems about right, since that will make them even with Muskets

 

[Jim Bro]

Germany: Now receives a 25% discount on land unit maintenance.
Ottoman: Now receives a 67% discount on naval unit maintenance, and can upgrade Galley’s to Trireme’s. (Huge early navy potential ?)

+1 moves for Tank, Panzer, Modern Armor, with no sight penalty.
Reduced Tank, Panzer, Modern Armor to lower tier city attack penalty (-25%, instead of -33%).

Decreased Longswordsman, Fighter, Bomber, Guided Missile, Jet Fighter and corresponding UUs strength. (which makes german pikes to be more useful)

i don't know what you're talking about. i didn't see such a thing when i played yesterday...

 

[GenjiKhan]

i don't know what you're talking about. i didn't see such a thing when i played yesterday...

I forgive you for your ignorance about what's happening in this forum. Just look at this thread posted by a spokesman of Firaxis June/July Patch Notes and you'll understand.

 

[GenjiKhan]

i would be VERY surprised if the LS nerf was more than -2. Bringing it down to 16 seems about right, since that will make them even with Muskets

it doesn't make sense to nerf LS more than -2 since musketman has a advantage of needless of any resource and is cheaper to build/rush.

 

[Randall Turner]

For early wars, longswordmen (or mandekalu cavalry, in your case) suffice, and they fear no one, so who cares what's around ya!

I haven't played them (Songhai) lately, and will only play one more long, big Deity game with the new patch as a final "goodbye". (I'll just crush the AI with them, but also learn all the changes.) Then switching to American/Immortal "Standard" everything, where I expect to have a very hard time. I doubt I'll be able to win a Deity game with the Americans again anytime soon.

I didn't discuss the sight range bonus b/c I don't think it's a weak point, really like it. But it's primarily a peace-of-mind type effect, not a leverage opportunity. Early, you don't get ambushed, but you don't get five vs. two ruins either (at higher difficulty levels) - you get to watch the AI's free initial units snatch the ruins before you get there, is all.

I agree that the AI can use certain straightforward advantages easier, and specifically noted in the unique unit elimination thread that Bushido was an example of this.

The problem with America's reduced tile cost UA is that it's an improvement on a secondary effect that's a lot less effective than an improvement on the relevant primary attribute, ie, Culture. A culture bonus, whether through a UB or France's UA, has a higher payoff. Even an unrelated primary attribute like population growth can give you the same benefit (through increased production, leading to earlier culture buildings). There's also a "cap" on the benefit, in that you can only work as many tiles as you've got citizens. It's just not that powerful.

The main early benefit from it is increased chopping, by the way.

It might be that doubling it (and you don't double powerful bonuses!) will enable some new exploiting strategies, like culture-blocking large swaths of terrain.

 

[roguepro92]

India will still be the ICS king.

oh, no.. now I have to get to 12 pop instead of 8 pop to abuse the Indian UA. (giving 6 free happiness instead of 4. Ie, the 'negative' part of the UA is instantly quashed by the positive side)

honestly
as India being one of the 3leaders i pretty much exclusively play as

i really dont see this as a negative because pretty much all the cities i have as India IS 15+ pop. it is completely irrelevant if your playing India tall before wide.

 

[Calouste]

More than what? I'll typically play Songhai or the Americans, my Songhai cities have faster expansion rate b/c of the Mud Pyramid Mosque "5" (now "4" post-patch) and legalism. And any culture-bonus civs also get the direct benefit of the social policies, which is of course a big deal.

It's not as much about how many tiles you expand to as the quality of the tiles. Songhai might have more tiles, but I'll take 1 resource tile over 3 non-resource tiles any day in the early game.

 

[Randall Turner]

It's not as much about how many tiles you expand to as the quality of the tiles. Songhai might have more tiles, but I'll take 1 resource tile over 3 non-resource tiles any day in the early game.

Oh, you're talking about explicitly buying the tiles. <shrug> I don't do that, I've typically got better uses for the gold as America. As Songhai, sometimes - but they have a lot more gold to spend early from barb camps.

Edit: again, the main early benefit I've found to border expansion is extra hexes to chop forests and speed production. But you don't want to buy forest hexes.

 

[Calouste]

Oh, you're talking about explicitly buying the tiles. <shrug> I don't do that, I've typically got better uses for the gold as America. As Songhai, sometimes - but they have a lot more gold to spend early from barb camps.

Edit: again, the main early benefit I've found to border expansion is extra hexes to chop forests and speed production. But you don't want to buy forest hexes.

There's little you can do with 50 or so gold you have lying around, besides buying tiles. And if you can buy a tile that produces more than the worst tile you are working at the moment, it is an investment that can pay itself back quickly.

 

[elprofesor]

I haven't played them (Songhai) lately, and will only play one more long, big Deity game with the new patch as a final "goodbye". (I'll just crush the AI with them, but also learn all the changes.) Then switching to American/Immortal "Standard" everything, where I expect to have a very hard time. I doubt I'll be able to win a Deity game with the Americans again anytime soon.

I didn't discuss the sight range bonus b/c I don't think it's a weak point, really like it. But it's primarily a peace-of-mind type effect, not a leverage opportunity. Early, you don't get ambushed, but you don't get five vs. two ruins either (at higher difficulty levels) - you get to watch the AI's free initial units snatch the ruins before you get there, is all.

I agree that the AI can use certain straightforward advantages easier, and specifically noted in the unique unit elimination thread that Bushido was an example of this.

The problem with America's reduced tile cost UA is that it's an improvement on a secondary effect that's a lot less effective than an improvement on the relevant primary attribute, ie, Culture. A culture bonus, whether through a UB or France's UA, has a higher payoff. Even an unrelated primary attribute like population growth can give you the same benefit (through increased production, leading to earlier culture buildings). There's also a "cap" on the benefit, in that you can only work as many tiles as you've got citizens. It's just not that powerful.

The main early benefit from it is increased chopping, by the way.

It might be that doubling it (and you don't double powerful bonuses!) will enable some new exploiting strategies, like culture-blocking large swaths of terrain.

I agree with you in everything you've said. The thing is that I try to consider UAs and UBs in the land of "noone is advantaged otherwise". The problem is that in SP, we have the brains, they have the numbers. At Deity play (I only play Emperor) you have to leverage everything you can, and America's bonus are too subtle (I don't mean difficult to understand, I mean difficult to exploit/abuse/get a clear benefit out of it). Should the AI be massively improved through patches, we will all be forced to drop levels until their bonus become reasonable; in that case America's UA would be nearly as good as any (for early wars or mopping out wars, I'd rather have bushido; but for later wars [pre bombers, though] with on par opponents, I'd rather have the extra sight; just a matter of taste, though).

 

[Randall Turner]

Should the AI be massively improved through patches, we will all be forced to drop levels until their bonus become reasonable; in that case America's UA would be nearly as good as any (for early wars or mopping out wars, I'd rather have bushido; but for later wars [pre bombers, though] with on par opponents, I'd rather have the extra sight; just a matter of taste, though).

I think "sight" is the most enjoyable attribute in the game. It's just pleasant.

Also btw, professor, realize that I get testy from having my belief system challenged - that's a character flaw, it's my fault. Nothing personal on you.

Once we take a stand on an issue there's a tendency to go, "yeah, that's it" and develop the supporting rationale. I'm on a "pessimistic" kick vis a vis patch balance changes. (Triggered b/c I also found the NC start to be just "pleasant", and am a bit grumpy for them making it less effective.) I might just be wrong, it might be that the designers' new balance overall allows us to play later into the game and stay competitive.

If that's the case, and if the new Nuke control mechanisms tone down the apocalyptic late game nuke spree, the American late game advantages will be relevant. In that case, I'll both be happy and of course they're a much stronger civ. <shrug> Could be.

There's little you can do with 50 or so gold you have lying around, besides buying tiles. And if you can buy a tile that produces more than the worst tile you are working at the moment, it is an investment that can pay itself back quickly.

It's been my experience that we place cities close to the key hexes, and the city grows quickly enough that it will keep the citizens busy. Doing the math on a tile purchase, you've got to have some very good reason to spend gold to expand. A luxury resource qualifies, but not if it's a number of hexes away, and of course not if it's on a puppet. The default expansion does a pretty good job of incorporating luxuries, less so for forests and hills. (sometimes you need production.)

btw, I don't know the formula for forest production points. It goes up if the tile is within your borders (of course you can chop a forest that's outside) but it also seems to depend on other factors. Someone has a post on this, I'm sure.

 

[elprofesor]

Also btw, professor, realize that I get testy from having my belief system challenged - that's a character flaw, it's my fault. Nothing personal on you.

It's always a pleasure to discuss the game with you. I think we've both made enough concessions that we are pretty much agreeing by now.

Here I am hoping too that the nuclear holocaust will stop post-patch. Randomly runing into Dr Strangelove from time to time is fun. Getting nuked into erradication of the human race every single game that gets into the modern era gets old fast.

 

[Lose]

i would be VERY surprised if the LS nerf was more than -2. Bringing it down to 16 seems about right, since that will make them even with Muskets

i was wondering this myself, i think your right 16 feels balanced.

 

[Ciek]

If that's the case, and if the new Nuke control mechanisms tone down the apocalyptic late game nuke spree, the American late game advantages will be relevant. In that case, I'll both be happy and of course they're a much stronger civ. <shrug> Could be.

Here I am hoping too that the nuclear holocaust will stop post-patch. Randomly runing into Dr Strangelove from time to time is fun. Getting nuked into erradication of the human race every single game that gets into the modern era gets old fast.

The prospect of a less-likely nuclear holocaust is the main reason I plan on playing again after the patch, (I don't want it gone, I would like it where you have to be wary of it, but it doesn't happen the moment any late game war begins).

The balance tweaks just give me new toys to play with.

 

[gingerbill]

While India got nerfed, +6 unhappiness per city instead of +4 with no extra benefit. i usually went India now i guess i'll find someone else.

America can now get 75% off tile purchasing with Angkor Wat which will be interesting.

india was my favourite there UA was amazing . I must admit i think it needed a nerf though it was too powerful . I think alot of people just read the description and dont realise how powerful it was , even with lots of cities it was amazing.

glad germany and ottomans got a buff , they needed it . I played germany alot in CIV4 but avoided them in CIV 5 , i'll be playing them on patch day.

 

[Lose]

india was my favourite there UA was amazing . I must admit i think it needed a nerf though it was too powerful . I think alot of people just read the description and dont realise how powerful it was , even with lots of cities it was amazing.

glad germany and ottomans got a buff , they needed it . I played germany alot in CIV4 but avoided them in CIV 5 , i'll be playing them on patch day.

yep same here.. waiting sucks