Globalism vs. Nationalism

[Traitorfish]

It's not a conspiracy theory to say a political party will convince people to vote against their interests. We see people round here apply that notion to the conservative party, the republicans, ukip and the aftermath of brexit about the working class who voted for it.

So no it's not a conspiracy theory to say people will be convinced to vote against their interests, it's just not usually applied to political parties you like.

It's a conspiracy theory to say that the European Union is "a political organisation that seeks to destroy nations" and that, in supporting it, the SNP are "actively deceiving people".

Or if it's not a conspiracy theory, it's hysterical doomsaying.

Take your pick, I guess.

 

[Oruc]

It's a conspiracy theory to say that the European Union is "a political organisation that seeks to destroy nations" and that, in supporting it, the SNP are "actively deceiving people".

Or if it's not a conspiracy theory, it's hysterical doomsaying.

Take your pick, I guess.

Nah, if you want to make a new identities you have to destroy the old, I mean look at the british identity all but dead. If they want people to be european in a meaningful sense, instead of just because you share a continent, they have to destroy the old.

People readily accept the notion that political parties deceive people, that they stir up hatred that they take advantage of peoples hopes and fears, and if they attain power they make the situation worse. Just because someone turns it on your own pet cause or a party you vaguely like does not mean it's a conspiracy theory.

Your politics isn't above exploiting and lying to people to further their own cause, but I take it you believe it is. you're just being overly defensive

 

[Traitorfish]

Nah, if you want to make a new identities you have to destroy the old, I mean look at the british identity all but dead. If they want people to be european in a meaningful sense, instead of just because you share a continent, they have to destroy the old.

That's hardly self-evident, or even really something that's borne out historically. British identity didn't erase Scottish identity, American identity didn't erase Texan identity, German identity didn't erase Bavarian identity. Yes, certain identities can appear difficult or even impossible to reconcile when they become attached to incompatible political projects- Corsican and French identity, say- but that's not necessarily the case, and there's no real evidence that the European identity half-heatedly espoused by the European Union represents any such project.

People readily accept the notion that political parties deceive people, that they stir up hatred that they take advantage of peoples hopes and fears, and if they attain power they make the situation worse. Just because someone turns it on your own pet cause or a party you vaguely like does not mean it's a conspiracy theory.

I'm not saying that the SNP are honest through and through. I'm saying that the claim they're involved in a project to destroy Scottish national identity is, bluntly, ridiculous to the point of paranoia. And if an emphatically nationalist party covertly operating a program of national self-dissolution should not be described as a "conspiracy", what else do we call it?

Yes, just because it's an unfavourable characterisation of a movement I'm sympathetic to doesn't make it a "conspiracy". But as I said, it's hard to know how else this imagined project should be described, and that doesn't change just because you don't want to be saddled with the label of "conspiracy theorist".

 

[Oruc]

That's hardly self-evident, or even really something that's borne out historically. British identity didn't erase Scottish identity, American identity didn't erase Texan identity, German identity didn't erase Bavarian identity. Yes, certain identities can appear difficult or even impossible to reconcile when they become attached to incompatible political projects- Corsican and French identity, say- but that's not necessarily the case, and there's no real evidence that the European identity half-heatedly espoused by the European Union represents any such project.
.

It's completely self-evident one identity must triumph over another, the Scottish identity triumphed over the British one and destroyed it, America is very divided and only getting worse how long will it hold?

I'm not saying that the SNP are honest through and through. I'm saying that the claim they're involved in a project to destroy Scottish national identity is, bluntly, ridiculous to the point of paranoia. And if an emphatically nationalist party covertly operating a program of national self-dissolution should not be described as a "conspiracy", what else do we call it?

Yes, just because it's an unfavourable characterisation of a movement I'm sympathetic to doesn't make it a "conspiracy". But as I said, it's hard to know how else this imagined project should be described, and that doesn't change just because you don't want to be saddled with the label of "conspiracy theorist".

I said it was just as likely they were stupid or misguided, but take a look at cutlass's or lexicus posts about the republican party or how others talk about the conservative party or UKIP and capitalists working collectively together against the whole worlds interest.
You're not labeling those people conspiracy theorist because vaguely align with them and agree with them and of course the only reason you're conversing with me is throw that label at me.
You're not really talk to me at all just grandstanding.

 

[Tahuti]

So the Scottish National Party are not, despite all conventional wisdom, Scottish nationalists, they're just a "Scottish national identity group"?

Thank you, and congratulations; You just convinced me to change the OP title to clarify in response to your point!

 

[Traitorfish]

It's completely self-evident one identity must triumph over another, the Scottish identity triumphed over the British one and destroyed it, America is very divided and only getting worse how long will it hold?

Nah, s'bollocks. Scottish and British identities co-existed quite happily for over a century, and the Scots were if anything more emphatically British than the English were. The collapse of British identity is a recent phenomenon which has nothing to do with a non-existent resurgence of Scottish identity- and, asides from anything else, is more a result of English neglect than Scottish rebellion.

America is divided, but not along lines of national identity. That's about the one thing everybody actually agrees on. And as I said, people don't seem to have a lot of trouble thinking of themselves as both "Bavarian" and "German", "Cantonese" and "Chinese" or "Yorkshiremen" and "English". Certainly there are countries where ethnic and regional identities do become incompatible, but as I said, those are identities that become attached to conflicting political projects, not simply because of some inevitable to-the-death clash between identities.

I said it was just as likely they were stupid or misguided, but take a look at cutlass's or lexicus posts about the republican party or how others talk about the conservative party or UKIP and capitalists working collectively together against the whole worlds interest.
You're not labeling those people conspiracy theorist because vaguely align with them and agree with them and of course the only reason you're conversing with me is throw that label at me.
You're not really talk to me at all just grandstanding.

The Republicans and Conservatives are pretty open about what they intend to do with the country; the deceit comes in telling people it's for their own good.

What you're suggesting is that the Scottish National Party are using a platform of Scottish nationalism to carry out a secret project of dissolving Scottish national identity in favour of the hegemonic Euro-borg. That's just not the same thing at all.

 

[Lexicus]

America is divided, but not along lines of national identity. That's about the one thing everybody actually agrees on. As I said, people don't seem to have a lot of trouble thinking of themselves as both "Bavarian" and "German", "Cantonese" and "Chinese" or "Yorkshiremen" and "English". Certainly there are countries where ethnic and regional identities do become incompatible, but as I said, those are identities that become attached to conflicting political projects, not simply because of some inevitable to-the-death clash between identities.

This doesn't even get into what happens when we introduce other dimensions like class, sexual orientation, religion, etc. into the mix.

 

[Tahuti]

This doesn't even get into what happens when we introduce other dimensions like class, sexual orientation, religion, etc. into the mix.

Queer nationalism actually is a thing. Before the 1960s, expressing sexual orientation wasn't even considered a valid identity then: Everyone was universally expected to be straight. Religion, a solid source of group identity in the West before that, has virtually disappeared into the margins.

The new conservatism we've seen taking root the past year and change is the driving force for making this globalist-nationalist distinction. Kind of ironic they're all using the same language and tropes while being from all over Europe and the USA, calling the other folks the globalists.

While a culturally conservative revolution, it also is a democratic one. The supporters of democracy usually are ideologues who have been supporters of globalism as well. Now, a new brand of democrat has emerged, who espouses direct democracy or populism, looks to Switzerland as an inspiration for solutions to all ills.
The most pure of all Westphalian states, Switzerland ironically has achieved this dubious status, because it didn't have to contend with exhaust fumes of Westphalian nationalism such as Fascism and State Communism.

What we are witnissing is the switch from Roman democracy with parliaments to Athenian democracy with forums. And the forums which actually impact politics - unlike CFC - are increasingly populated by... populists.

 

[Lexicus]

Queer nationalism actually is a thing. Before the 1960s, expressing sexual orientation wasn't even considered a valid identity then: Everyone was universally expected to be straight. Religion, a solid source of group identity in the West before that, has virtually disappeared into the margins.

Ehh, I wouldn't say religion has disappeared into the margins. Religious identity stuff is still pretty mainstream in the US and obviously it plays an enormous role in many places outside the West.