Historical Argument That Was In the Wrong Forum

[Patine]

@Bonyduck Campersang I'm not sure why @Henri Christophe is bringing up Genghis Khan here. He was neither Muslim nor Hindu (I believe he was still Tengrist all his life), and barely penentrated any but the northern most fringes of India in his own campaigns (his successors went deeper).

 

[Henri Christophe]

@Bonyduck Campersang I'm not sure why @Henri Christophe is bringing up Genghis Khan here. He was neither Muslim nor Hindu (I believe he was still Tengrist all his life), and barely penentrated any but the northern most fringes of India in his own campaigns (his successors went deeper).

I bring the discussion about Mughal empire and Mongol empire should be a single civ but with two leaders of respective civilizations.
Also Roman and Byzantium should be a single civ or Germany and Holly Roman Empire.
On that way, we can represent more civilizations with less civs and open room to more obscure civilizations in this game who never appears before.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

I am sympathetic to the idea of coalescing civilizations into broader clusters in order to have a more diverse roster, but the idea that the Mughals and Mongols are the same is ABSOLUTELY BONKERS

 

[AmazonQueen]

I am sympathetic to the idea of coalescing civilizations into broader clusters in order to have a more diverse roster, but the idea that the Mughals and Mongols are the same is ABSOLUTELY BONKERS

No more bonkers than the idea that the Mughals and Indians are the same which is how they've been treated in past Civs.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

No more bonkers than the idea that the Mughals and Indians are the same which is how they've been treated in past Civs.

The Mughals were Indian, they ruled in India, they adopted and contributed to the syncretic Indo-Persian culture of the previous Islamic states in northern India, they had intermarriages with Indian royal families, looking at the portraits of the rulers you can see that from Akbar down all the emperors resembled their Indian subjects (and not their Turkic forebears)... really the only Mongolic link is that the founder of the empire was descendant of Genghis Khan from his mother's side

 

[Patine]

I bring the discussion about Mughal empire and Mongol empire should be a single civ but with two leaders of respective civilizations.
Also Roman and Byzantium should be a single civ

These conflations make no real sense. A many of the proposals who offer to be those civ's who should get those slots - even using harsh and contentious terms like having their slots, "stolen," (which is quite presumptuous), they are ones VERY questionalbe for marketability, popularity, and relevance, and thus these odd conflations you propose to save slots make me not eager to get on board.

 

[Plotinus]

Please, let’s not revisit the question whether the Byzantines were Roman (or Greek). That argument’s lasted for longer than the Byzantine empire itself did.

 

[Henri Christophe]

really the only Mongolic link is that the founder of the empire was descendant of Genghis Khan from his mother's side

Not the only Mongolic link, we also have the History they tell to they self about where they come from.
And how they see they self should be the most important!
It's not that uncommum the noble think about they self as something outside the realm of communers.
The Vedic people was also outsiders invasiors, as the Mughals who come from North Asia to domain the India sub continent.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Not the only Mongolic link, we also have the History they tell to they self about where they come from.
And how they see they self should be the most important!

The Mughals did not call themselves 'Mughals', it's an endonym, a term used for them by outsiders! The Mughals referred to their realm as 'Hindustan', and their dynasty as 'Gurkani', did you not read the Wikipedia extract responding to you on this very topic??

 

[Henri Christophe]

did you not read the Wikipedia extract responding to you on this very topic??

Ohh sorry! I just read it!
So... Who called Hindustan as Mughals?


By the way, Hindustan is a better name then Gurkani to be a civ.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

it's an endonym

Exonym, not endonym

Who called Hindustan as Mughals?

I don't know

By the way, Hindustan is a better name then Gurkani to be a civ.

You're darned right it is

 

[Evie]

Mostly, it was the Persians who called Hindustan "Mughals", it seems.

 

[Patine]

Not the only Mongolic link, we also have the History they tell to they self about where they come from.
And how they see they self should be the most important!
It's not that uncommum the noble think about they self as something outside the realm of communers.
The Vedic people was also outsiders invasiors, as the Mughals who come from North Asia to domain the India sub continent.

You really give too much credence to self-labelling, which is very often only a matter of pretense and making dubious claims of aggrandizment or legitimacy.

 

[Kyriakos]

Would that many people really want to play as Mughals? (as opposed to India)

 

[Patine]

Would that many people really want to play as Mughals? (as opposed to India)

That's a good question, and very difficult to say, off hand.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

No more bonkers than the idea that the Mughals and Indians are the same which is how they've been treated in past Civs.

It's very odd, almost a Mandela efect, but I was pretty sure that Akbar was a Civ leader in a past game, but another poster in another thread mentioned how India has never had a Mughal leader, and even after a quick Google confirming that I still have this very strong idea that the Mughals have been represented in a Civ game before

 

[Patine]

Would that many people really want to play as Mughals? (as opposed to India)

But, I'm willing to bet heavily (and I'm not a betting man) that they would not go for a conflation of Mongols and Mughals as one civ. In fact, I believe merging Romans and Byzantines would be quite contentious among many.

 

[Kyriakos]

Well, yes, the Byzantine Empire kept existing for 1000 years after the fall of the western roman empire, so making them one civ is a bit superfluous. Besides, due to other strategy games, a lot of people want to play specifically as byzantines, not western romans.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

In fact, I believe merging Romans and Byzantines would be quite contentious among many.

The only true answer is to merge the Greeks and the Byzantines

 

[Patine]

The only true answer is to merge the Greeks and the Byzantines

The Byzantines were even MORE different than the Ancient Greeks, language aside.