Historical saves in a sequential pitboss

[Lord Parkin]

PBEM is far from a good format....there are so many things that the last team to play benefits from...I will name a few:

Military moves...you know where everyone moved and then you make yours..moving second in war is always a plus

Moving second in a war is certainly not always a plus. In fact I would argue that making the first move is far more powerful, due to the element of surprise.

Besides, the player that is last in the turn order may declare war on another team, in which case their units will move first. I think you're not seeing the bigger picture here: teams move one after another in a continuous circle. The start of a new game year is barely relevant except for healing. Player 1 moves, then Player 2 moves, then Player 1 moves again and so on. In each case the player currently playing knows what the player before them did. I don't see how your point is relevant.

Tech...through espionaze you can see what others are teching, thus chose your research

Huh? All teams can do this, regardless of their position in the turn order. This would only be relevant in a situation where every single team finished their research on the same turn and didn't have research queues set up - a very contrived situation. And besides, the benefit is so minor that I don't see any issue. Teams usually know what other teams are researching primarily due to diplomacy, not espionage. And what kind of team picks a tech to research based on what the other (unallied, spied upon) teams are researching anyway? Not a very good one, that's for sure. We're not playing with AI's where researching a unique tech will automatically allow free trading with everyone else.

Bulbs...you will see every bulb that happened in this turn, thus adjusting your research

Again, this is a very minor point, and it isn't even really relevant due to the circular order of turns mentioned before.

Wonders....you will see what was completed

You're completely missing the fact that the huge advantage of going first in a PBEM is that if you're racing for a wonder on the same turn as the last player, you automatically get it. Thus, the first player always has an advantage in terms of wonder races (or religion races, or the Liberalism or free Great Person races for that matter). Thus, the first player has far more of an advantage than the last in this case.

Slaving...you will see the slaving done

Yes, and then the first team to play will see the slaving done by the last team... what's the advantage?

First team has to wait for next turn to see all that...

Sure. But then the second team has to wait until next turn to see what the first team has done, the 3rd has to wait a turn to see what the 2nd has done, and the last team has to wait a turn to see what the second-to-last has done.

The funny thing is, I agree with you on your overall argument that PBEM/sequential turns aren't as handy as simultaneous turns. It's just that the particular points you're bringing up don't really support your overall argument!

In general, it is the first player in PBEM/sequential turns who has the slight advantage in most matters - not the last. The advantages of the last player are mainly in seeing AI/barbarian moves at the end of their turn.

EDIT: Apologies for the threadjack. I'll keep quiet about this now, I promise.

 

[CommandoBob]

EDIT: Apologies for the threadjack. I'll keep quiet about this now, I promise.

I thought it was a good reply; far better than mine would have been (I haven't had any coffee yet, so maybe that's why I'm crabby! )

Overall, I prefer rational discussion of a subject no matter what thread it is in. I am always willing to learn.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Moving second in a war is certainly not always a plus. In fact I would argue that making the first move is far more powerful, due to the element of surprise.

Besides, the player that is last in the turn order may declare war on another team, in which case their units will move first. I think you're not seeing the bigger picture here: teams move one after another in a continuous circle. The start of a new game year is barely relevant except for healing. Player 1 moves, then Player 2 moves, then Player 1 moves again and so on. In each case the player currently playing knows what the player before them did. I don't see how your point is relevant.

I am surprised you don't understand this....if you play second you see the unit comming at your cultural border, so can prepare in case he attacks.

If you play first however you will have one less turn to prepare.

Example: Team 1 plays sees nothing outside cultural border..continues normally...team 2 has 10 horse archers and 4 workers just out of vission of team 1 cultural borders...they road..attack..team 1 has just lost a city

On the other hand if team 1 did that, then team 2 could slave and move units from other cities for defence.

How more simply can I explain?

Huh? All teams can do this, regardless of their position in the turn order. This would only be relevant in a situation where every single team finished their research on the same turn and didn't have research queues set up - a very contrived situation. And besides, the benefit is so minor that I don't see any issue. Teams usually know what other teams are researching primarily due to diplomacy, not espionage. And what kind of team picks a tech to research based on what the other (unallied, spied upon) teams are researching anyway? Not a very good one, that's for sure. We're not playing with AI's where researching a unique tech will automatically allow free trading with everyone else.

Minnor issue, maybe the most minnor of all I mentioned but....having techs qued? Why do that?

You're completely missing the fact that the huge advantage of going first in a PBEM is that if you're racing for a wonder on the same turn as the last player, you automatically get it. Thus, the first player always has an advantage in terms of wonder races (or religion races, or the Liberalism or free Great Person races for that matter). Thus, the first player has far more of an advantage than the last in this case.

Really? I am pretty sure it is randomelly decided!?

Yes, and then the first team to play will see the slaving done by the last team... what's the advantage?

You see that they are building an army?

Sure. But then the second team has to wait until next turn to see what the first team has done, the 3rd has to wait a turn to see what the 2nd has done, and the last team has to wait a turn to see what the second-to-last has done.

Again...it is important to see all that the same turn so you can slave, change builds, techs, moves wonders etc...what good is seeing it next turn...it is already over..

 

[Earthling]

Look, Indiansmoke, this discussion probably doesn't belong in this thread, and even then(though it is to many folks' chagrin, apparently) it's already been decided on sequential turns. Secondly, you almost seem to me to not understand whether you are talking about simultaneous or sequential turns. All of the points in the post above, at best relate to simultaneous (=teams take turn at same time, within one overall time window) and even then many are mistaken.

First, Lord Parkin is entirely correct that on sequential (one after the other) turns, the person who gets a wonder/research first ALWAYS gets it. When was the last time you were playing an AI (sequential) and built a wonder completely, and then during the AI's turn it was built somewhere else- never- just replace this with two humans. On simultaneous turns, two people can build a wonder on the same turn, but then it goes to the person with more overflow or something.

I actually had a bit to argue about this in the other thread as well, but all your points about military/slaving are not valid for sequential turns. Some may be valid for simultaneous turns but that is beside the point. For a sequential turn, everything for one team happens during that team's individual turn. They heal, promote, move units, etc... at the end of the team's individual turn any built units/structures appear in their cities. So, if another team declares war, it does not matter what order in the sequence they are; the defending team always get to take every opportunity that they ever would anyway (again, sequential is the same format as single player- when someone declares war on you, you still have a chance to respond right?) It seems like you might be picturing double moves or some other exploit in your head; I agree that there are differences for simultaneous turns about how warfare can work, however none of the points you make even really addresses sequential turns.

Finally, at least for sequential turns the time given to every team is pretty much entirely fair- 24 hours for that team's individual turn. The only possible turn where this is different is the very first turn of the game; but then I can't see any trouble because nobody will have contact, and everyone will likely know the starting position in advance and have already planned out. After that, Lord Parkin is again correct - there is no such thing as an "overall" turn that matters (except maybe time victory) as much as each team takes a turn one after the other.

 

[oyzar]

It is randomly decided in simultaneous turns, not in sequential ones obviously...

 

[Lord Parkin]

I am surprised you don't understand this....if you play second you see the unit comming at your cultural border, so can prepare in case he attacks.

If you play first however you will have one less turn to prepare.

Example: Team 1 plays sees nothing outside cultural border..continues normally...team 2 has 10 horse archers and 4 workers just out of vission of team 1 cultural borders...they road..attack..team 1 has just lost a city

On the other hand if team 1 did that, then team 2 could slave and move units from other cities for defence.

How more simply can I explain?

I think you still can't see the bigger picture. In order to understand what I'm saying, just consider the reverse situation:

Team 2 plays sees nothing outside cultural border..continues normally...team 1 has 10 horse archers and 4 workers just out of vission of team 2 cultural borders...they road..attack..team 2 has just lost a city

Can you not see that the two situations will be identical, and thus that your point is irrelevant?

Minnor issue, maybe the most minnor of all I mentioned but....having techs qued? Why do that?

Mainly because it's convenient. It also saves you losing some research if you don't log in for a few turns, but that's fairly minor (most teams won't be doing that, hopefully).

Really? I am pretty sure it is randomelly decided!?

In simultaneous turn games, yes. In PBEM games, no. It's like single player games: the human gets first dibs on wonders/religions/techs/GP's because they always go first in the turn order.

You see that they are building an army?

That doesn't help out team 2. Team 2 whips -> Team 1 sees and responds. Or: Team 1 whips -> Team 2 sees and responds. No real difference.

Again...it is important to see all that the same turn so you can slave, change builds, techs, moves wonders etc...what good is seeing it next turn...it is already over..

Yes, but the turn order is circular, so this applies to every player.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I think you still can't see the bigger picture. In order to understand what I'm saying, just consider the reverse situation:



Can you not see that the two situations will be identical, and thus that your point is irrelevant?

You still do not get it .....in the reverse situation team 2 will be able to slave..move troops in the same turn....team 1 will not be able to do this...

 

[Indiansmoke]

It is randomly decided in simultaneous turns, not in sequential ones obviously...

Obviously? You are 100% certain about this? I thought that all calculations are made before the bigging of turn...who gets the wonder is decided before anyone plays..it is irrelevant who plays first and who second...

 

[Lord Parkin]

You still do not get it .....in the reverse situation team 2 will be able to slave..move troops in the same turn....team 1 will not be able to do this...

Team 2 cannot slave while Team 1 is roading and attacking unless they are playing simultaneously with Team 1. Really, this is a very basic concept.

One team roads, attacks, destroys the city. The other moves units to respond next turn. It does not matter whether you apply this to Team 1 or Team 2.

Since several other people have already backed up what I've said, you need to consider whether you've got more than a bit confused here.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Finally, at least for sequential turns the time given to every team is pretty much entirely fair- 24 hours for that team's individual turn. The only possible turn where this is different is the very first turn of the game; but then I can't see any trouble because nobody will have contact, and everyone will likely know the starting position in advance and have already planned out. After that, Lord Parkin is again correct - there is no such thing as an "overall" turn that matters (except maybe time victory) as much as each team takes a turn one after the other.

How is that? Team 5 can log into the game from turn roll but not make any moves until all othrers have played correct?

So it has 5 days after seeing whta is going on after turn roll to decide waht to play...team 1 only has 24 hours after turn roll to decide..

 

[Lord Parkin]

Obviously? You are 100% certain about this? I thought that all calculations are made before the bigging of turn...who gets the wonder is decided before anyone plays..it is irrelevant who plays first and who second...

No, this is definitely not the case for sequential PBEM turns, all single player and all hotseat games.

Might I suggest that in future you do some research before stating things as if they are fact? It'll help avoid potential embarrassments.

 

[Lord Parkin]

How is that? Team 5 can log into the game from turn roll but not make any moves until all othrers have played correct?

So it has 5 days after seeing whta is going on after turn roll to decide waht to play...team 1 only has 24 hours after turn roll to decide..

But teams 1, 2, 3 and 4 will move their units before team 5 starts their turn... thus team 5 will only have 24 hours after seeing the final situation after all units have been moved.

No offense intended, but really, you seem to be getting so hopelessly confused that it's a bit funny.

 

[CommandoBob]

How is that? Team 5 can log into the game from turn roll but not make any moves until all othrers have played correct?

True. Team 5 cannot do anything until it is their turn.

So it has 5 days after seeing whta is going on after turn roll to decide waht to play...team 1 only has 24 hours after turn roll to decide..

In theory yes, but in the real world, no. It just doesn't work that way. The 'turn roll' that you are concerned about is not an issue.

I am going to guess that you have not played a PBEM game.

 

[Earthling]

Well, Indiansmoke, as I said at the bottom of my post, there is no such thing as a "turn roll" for sequential turns because there is no "overall" turn. Each team's turn is done and complete one at a time. This "turn roll" you're talking about only happens for simultaneous turns where everyone is moving at the same time (although we'd have rules to prevent double moves). Are you sure you're understanding the difference between the two. Finally, to sum things up:

Gameplay Differences:

Sequential Turns
None

Simultaneous Turns
Warfare - When units are built/slaved and when units heal - can have slight differences
Who gets a wonder or a religion-decided somewhat randomly between two teams
Exploits like double moves - you have to follow additional rules against these exploits

Time Differences:
Sequential Turns
Every team gets the same amount of time, but slower overall because the aggregate clocks are longer (5*24 hours standard)

Simultaneous Turns
Teams all play within overall time clock (48 hours or something); might be necessary to have pauses and such occasionally. Faster for the game to play out because clock is shorter

So, since it's already basically decided to play sequential turns, there are virtually no additional exploits for you to worry about. It might be debateable whether it's good for the game to go slower or faster - get things moving quicker versus more time for discussion. But then again, you can always have your team try to rush through each turn in blazing speed if you're worried about time - I'm sure they'd like that too.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Team 2 cannot slave while Team 1 is roading and attacking unless they are playing simultaneously with Team 1. Really, this is a very basic concept.

One team roads, attacks, destroys the city. The other moves units to respond next turn. It does not matter whether you apply this to Team 1 or Team 2.

Since several other people have already backed up what I've said, you need to consider whether you've just got a bit confused here.

I am certainly not confused...

Simply expalined on your reverse scenario.

Assuming defending city has second border pop

It is turn 100.

team 1 plays first it roads and moves horse archers within cultural borders....HA are now within 3 tiles of city..

It is still turn 100

team 2 plays it has only 1 defender in city but...sees the horse archers, slaves one defender

It now turn 101

team 1 plays horse archers move to 1 tile from city

It is still turn 101

team 2 plays it now has 2 defenders and slaves another

Turn 102

team 1 attacks.. in the city are 3 defenders

Reverse scenario

It is turn 100

team 1 plays..nothing special

It is still turn 100

team 2 plays moves in cultural border 3 tiles from city

It is now turn 101

team 1 sees the attack now...slaves 1 defender

team 2 moves 1 tile from city

It is now turn 102

team 1 has 2 defenders in city Team 2 attacks

ONLY 2 defenders in city...while team 2 had 3 defenders in reverse scenario

 

[Earthling]

It is still turn 100

Here's your problem right away. There is no such thing as "still turn 100" for sequential turns. What you're thinking of is simultaneous turns. Furthermore, it has already been concluded (I'm pretty sure) that the game will be using sequential turns. While I agree it is nice to think through possible concerns, we won't have to worry about things like this because that game format is already decided. Yes, simultaneous turns can give that problem on when a slaved unit pops out, but we are using sequential turns (your "original" scenario- the one that's ok).

 

[Lord Parkin]

Seriously... are you joking?

Here's what you've done:

Team 2: Start 1 defender + slave 1 + slave 1 = 3 defenders

Team 1: Start 0 defenders + slave 1 + slave 1 = 2 defenders

You've started off team 2 with an extra defender! Of course they'll have an extra one in that case!

Please, if you don't know about these things, or haven't played sequential turn multiplayer games before, then stop posting and do some research. You're only making things worse.

It is turn 100.

team 1 plays first it roads and moves horse archers within cultural borders....HA are now within 3 tiles of city..

It is still turn 100

team 2 plays it has only 1 defender in city but...sees the horse archers, slaves one defender

It now turn 101

team 1 plays horse archers move to 1 tile from city

It is still turn 101

team 2 plays it now has 2 defenders and slaves another

Turn 102

team 1 attacks.. in the city are 3 defenders

Reverse scenario

It is turn 100

team 1 plays..nothing special

It is still turn 100

team 2 plays moves in cultural border 3 tiles from city

It is now turn 101

team 1 sees the attack now...slaves 1 defender

team 2 moves 1 tile from city

It is now turn 102

team 1 has 2 defenders in city Team 2 attacks

 

[Indiansmoke]

Seriously... are you joking?

Here's what you've done:

Team 2: Start 1 defender + slave 1 + slave 1 = 3 defenders

Team 1: Start 0 defenders + slave 1 + slave 1 = 2 defenders

You've started off team 2 with an extra defender! Of course they'll have an extra one in that case!

Please, if you don't know about these things, or haven't played sequential turn multiplayer games before, then stop posting and do some research. You're only making things worse.

Yea sorry typing error, both teams start with one defender...the argument still stands...due to the fact that slaved units appear at begging of turn (the overall turn not your turn.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Yea sorry typing error, both teams start with one defender...the argument still stands...due to the fact that slaved units appear at begging of turn (the overall turn not your turn.

NO. I think you are used to simultaneous turns. Sequential turns work differently. Slaved units appear at the END of each player's turn, NOT at the end of the "overall" turn. Thus there will be no difference between team 1 and 2 at all.

Team 2: Start 1 + slave 1 + slave 1 = 3 defenders
Team 1: Start 1 + slave 1 + slave 1 = 3 defenders

 

[Indiansmoke]

NO. I think you are used to simultaneous turns. Sequential turns work differently. Slaved units appear at the END of each player's turn, NOT at the end of the "overall" turn. Thus there will be no difference between team 1 and 2 at all.

Team 2: Start 1 + slave 1 + slave 1 = 3 defenders
Team 1: Start 1 + slave 1 + slave 1 = 3 defenders

I checked it...you are right, units appear when you end your turn....sorry for the confusion..