How Do You Spawn The Infernal?

[Lorak]

Hello! Noob question here.

I've been playing this mod with a friend of mine for a couple weeks now and I have spent several games lately trying to spawn the Infernal because we have never seen them.

I'm getting highly frustrated because it takes a good bit of time to get to the point to Infernal Pact and when I finally get there... nothing happens.

I was under the impression that the Infernal spawn when you research Infernal Pact, is this not correct? Out of at least 4 games where I researched Infernal Pact, I have had nothing happen. :-( Highly frustrating, especially since when I did it with Mercurians it worked fine.

I'm sure there's something small I must be missing, can you guys help me out? :-( Are there any conditions in which the Infernal will not spawn? (We like to play with a lot of nations, so we may have had the max number of players, 35, in all of our games) Can the Infernal not spawn when you have 35 players?

Also, we are playing patch "m".

Also of note. We have never, EVER, seen the Infernal in any game. Not just the games where I tried to spawn them, but the AI has never spawned them either.

Any help to point me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated! Thank you very much! ^_^

 

[Tholal]

When Infernal Pact is researched, Hyborem will appear in some unoccupied part of the world. If it's late in the game when all the land is settled, this generally ends up being some frozen wasteland off in the middle of nowhere.

 

[apenpaap]

Compact Enforced may be on, but since you mentioned the Mercurians working, it's doubtful. Maybe they have already been summoned. Balseraphs and Sheaim AI are sometimes very fast with that.

 

[Pickly]

He has been AI summoned once in a game I've played, but still seems rare.

Even if there is some open land, the infernals may not be expanding or otherwise doing much of anything at the moment. (See this self promotional screenshot for an example, second to last post, where the infernals ended up with no cities: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=207873&page=50)


If do you successfully reach the infernals first, you'll see a dialog box. (I think similar to Mercurians, although I've never actually summoned Mercurians yet so can't say for sure) asking if you want to switch.

 

[hbar]

...(We like to play with a lot of nations, so we may have had the max number of players, 35, in all of our games) Can the Infernal not spawn when you have 35 players?...

This is most likely your problem. Start a game with 34 players and you should be fine. I think this has been an issue for a while, but it is rarely reported because most people play with fewer civs. Simply something the Civ engine wasn't built for.

 

[Lorak]

35 players definitely seemed to be the problem. Started a game with 30 players and it worked fine, but a new problem occured.

After taking over Hyborem and reloading the game due to the out of sync error when you switch to him, we started going out of sync every 5 turns or so. :-( Made it pretty much unplayable, so bleh.

Kinda disappointing. I have seen other threads about frequent out of syncs when playing with a large number of players, however my friend and I seem to be able to play with 30+ players through an entire game with zero out of sync, but as soon as I took over Hyborem we were going out of sync like crazy. Seems to work fine as long as the AI is controlling him, though. If "control" is what you want to call it, since it seems like he just sits in his city and does nothing.

Anyway, problem solved! Too bad about the out of sync errors, though, hehe.

 

[JonathanStrange]

This is most likely your problem. Start a game with 34 players and you should be fine. I think this has been an issue for a while, but it is rarely reported because most people play with fewer civs. Simply something the Civ engine wasn't built for.

I believe you're correct there, Planck's Constant. I think I've seen this mentioned in a bug thread some time ago. The Infernals do spawn often enough in my 8 civilization games. So trying a smaller number may help.

Alternately, one could get Mrs. Hyborem drunk and then try spawning...unpleasant, sure, but he asked...

 

[Buckwild]

Quick side question, how do you guys change the number of players on a map? I play the ErebusContinental map and it never asks me how many players I want on the map...

Is it a MP functionality? I play only single player games.

 

[apenpaap]

It's in the Custom Game menu.

 

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I can confirm that the Infernals seem to make the game a bit unstable.

It would be also nice to tone down their insane economy a bit.
A capital city with ~30 size and a production of 200 units/round and half a dozen similar cities in round ~110 seems a bit too over the top for me...

 

[hbar]

Re: the economy

They are impossible to balance because they are not in the game from the beginning. If you nerf them for a rush strategy, they will be horribly underpowered in any other situation. If you set them up for a late-game spawn, then rush strategies become uncounterable (is that a word?)

They are designed and balanced specifically for single-player games. For competitive multiplayer, it is probably best to use the 'compact enforced' game option. That should take care of the OOS problems too.

This is ahead of its time - Blizzard is apparently designing starcraft 2 in the same way - the coolest toys are SP only, because they are impossible to balance.

 

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Well, it shouldn't be too difficult to check the round when Hyborem is summoned and make some adjustments accordingly. For example:

Early game: (< round 200 on normal, < round 100 quick tech)
Small army, only 1 settler or city, city size 10 max

Mid game: (< round 300 on normal, < round 150 quick tech)
Medium army, 1 city and 1 settler, city size 20 max

End game: (>= round 300 on normal, >= round 150 quick tech)
Large army, 1 city and 2 settlers, city size 30 max

Just an example... Mercurians also work, so it should be also possible for Infernals.

And 100% balancing is neither possible nor necessary.
But the way infernals are designed is sick.
Giving them insane economy + great units like cultists + infernal grimoire so they can tech rush to malevolent designs in 1 round is a bit over the top.
Mercurians are a joke compared to that.

 

[hbar]

Now that I think about it, I don't think they have been rebalanced since the AI started using stacks of doom. Before, when AI stack consisted of at most 20 units, Infernal Mane production was never a concern (in fact, they were often hurting for population). Now that the AI fields armies of 200+, I can see how it could get out of hand...

But you're right. The changes shouldn't be hard to make. Since the mod is no longer being updated, that means you're on your own - best get coding!

 

[FireBlaze]

Well, it shouldn't be too difficult to check the round when Hyborem is summoned and make some adjustments accordingly. For example:

Early game: (< round 200 on normal, < round 100 quick tech)
Small army, only 1 settler or city, city size 10 max

Mid game: (< round 300 on normal, < round 150 quick tech)
Medium army, 1 city and 1 settler, city size 20 max

End game: (>= round 300 on normal, >= round 150 quick tech)
Large army, 1 city and 2 settlers, city size 30 max

Just an example... Mercurians also work, so it should be also possible for Infernals.

And 100% balancing is neither possible nor necessary.
But the way infernals are designed is sick.
Giving them insane economy + great units like cultists + infernal grimoire so they can tech rush to malevolent designs in 1 round is a bit over the top.
Mercurians are a joke compared to that.

You now realize that there is a specialty promotion designed just to fight the Infernals

 

[Tasunke]

Infernals and Mercurians are both well-made. I don't see much needed change (of the two divine civs) other than to make the AI play them any better than sub-par.

 

[DaveGold]

I think Hyborem is very well made and Basium very clumsily made. Perhaps I'll write up some Basium proposals when I can get my thoughts together on him. At the moment he'll give all your tech to your vassal, then declare war on them, and hardly move a unit outside his borders. Thanks Basium, great help partner!

 

[Onionsoilder]

I think Hyborem is very well made and Basium very clumsily made. Perhaps I'll write up some Basium proposals when I can get my thoughts together on him. At the moment he'll give all your tech to your vassal, then declare war on them, and hardly move a unit outside his borders. Thanks Basium, great help partner!

That's a problem with FFH's AI, not the Mercurian civilization.

 

[Tasunke]

Basium pwnz Hyborem

Hyborem pwnz mortal nations

In the end, the two races are both amazingly awesome, and I only wish their AI was even half-way as awesome.

For a more in depth dissertation of Basium rush vs Hyborem rush, the two seem to be fairly neck and neck. In any given situation, either nation might have the upper-hand. The most obvious situation is if Hyborem spawns right on top of the Basium rusher ... as it takes longer to rush Basium.

On average though, I would say that on standard sized maps Basium has the advantage between the two archangels. This does not guarantee victory Basium vs Hyborem, however.

 

[DaveGold]

My suggested Basium improvements -

General AI
Basium should not wonder solo (other heroes do too, strange behavior).
An idle stack of angels should be in a city defending, not wandering aimlessly.
He should attack things, lots of things, repeatedly.
He shouldn't give technology to vassals unless he has at least a cautious attitude to them.
He should respond to diplomacy options which tell him to attack a city.

Basium AI
Delay casting of the world spell. He shouldn't get overexcited when seeing his first demon.
He should declare war on Hyborem as often as he declares war on the AV host nation.
He should break the permanent alliance if his partner founds/turns AV.
He should not research evil religions and should not adopt them if he's got a choice.
The Basium partnership should not be able to take AV vassals or a vassal hosting the AV city.
Basium can then declare war on vassals who turn ashen veil (as he does now) and it doesn't look so stupid.
Basium should promote priest units with inquistion and use them on AV cities.

Feature Change
As the AV city is the focus for his ambitions his alliance should have should some way of dealing with it if they capture it - perhaps a method of 'closing the veil' or removing the stigmata.

 

[Tasunke]

1) Basium should only use the world spell if he is near a large stack of Infernals, or better yet, near Hyborem. Basium should always use the world spell if he is close enough to Hyborem (and Hyborem isn't well guarded) for a chance to attack Hybbie directly

2) 25% of angels should garrison city permanently, 75% of angels should be a flexible garrison that follows Basium on the attack whenever Basium decides to attack something

3) Basium AI should almost* always raze the AV holy city if he captures it. *The only time Basium should not raze AV holy city is if its ALSO the holy city of Empyrean, Order, or his current state religion.

4) Basium AI should be blocked from adopting OO and Esus (in addition to AV).

5) Basium should always use inquisitors vs OO, Esus, and AV for his own cities and those of his allies/rivals. Whenever possible.