Ideological Dissatsfaction and City Flipping Details

[Joe Hoofer]

"The Huns are Revolting!"
Well, yeah.

 

[VermelhoRed]

"We have been unfairly given a free government! Let us protest so that we can get the autocracy which is rightfully ours!"

Do you know how many times people rebelled agaist capitalist goverments to form socialist or fascist governments?

 

[AriochIV]

Do you know how many times people rebelled agaist capitalist goverments to form socialist or fascist governments?

Most of the democracies that later fell to communism or fascism were democracies in name only. And most of the fascist systems were every bit as capitalistic as the systems they replaced.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Ideologies are less about what you are and more about what you believe. It's how America can be one of the least free modernized democracies and still consider itself the "Leader of the Free World".

A democracy in name only would still be thought to be under the Freedom ideology in game terms.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Most of the democracies that later fell to communism or fascism were democracies in name only. And most of the fascist systems were every bit as capitalistic as the systems they replaced.

German democracy was as good as any other democracy of the first half of XX century. And France almost fell to fascism at the same time.

Also opposition of fascism and capitalism isn't right. Fascism isn't an economic system, it opposes democracy.

 

[VermelhoRed]

Most of the democracies that later fell to communism or fascism were democracies in name only.

The same could be said about most of the "democracies" of the world today. Which is why I used the term "capitalist", not the most correct term, but better than democracy.

 

[anandus]

Most of the democracies that later fell to communism or fascism were democracies in name only. And most of the fascist systems were every bit as capitalistic as the systems they replaced.

Indeed.
One can have a capitalistic autocracy (there were and still are many) or a centrally led democracy (those are fewer, maybe even only in theory).
Capitalist and democracy isn't a synonym.

 

[AriochIV]

One can have a capitalistic autocracy (there were and still are many) or a centrally led democracy (those are fewer, maybe even only in theory).
Capitalist and democracy isn't a synonym.

Or a socialist democracy. There are quite a few of those.

 

[Chris Hill]

As I recall, the information shown in the Public Opinion could be either a Global value, based on all of the cities, or the Local value for the worst case city.

If Global, it would imply that a large number of your cities are in that state or worst. If Local, it might suggest that only one or two cities are in that state. In either case, there needs to be a way of identifying those cities, so that you can deal with them, either generally through ideology tenets or specifically by adding suitable buildings.

The next question regards to what is the effect of a poor Public Opinion setting. As suggested, it could result in unhappiness, poor or no production, the appearance of rebels or barbarians, etc. There is also the possibility, as in Civ IV, for a city to want to switch to a different ideology, and therefore a different civ. Again, would that be the strongest civ with that ideology, or the nearest.

The short answer is that, at present, we do not know how this is going to work out, until we get a video or report from one of the reviewers.

Let's hope that Firaxis decide to give us some hints, rather than wait for the BNW release.

 

[marioflag]

I really hope they rework happiness bonus at higher levels otherwise this new feature will be working only against the player while AI will be completely unaffected (due to its immense happiness bonus).

 

[Seek]

Nice. I was hoping for more information about this. It's hardly covered by the media or 2k.

Me too! I was thrilled when I caught these tooltips. It's truly shocking that more reviewers haven't given this more space.

Nowhere did I read that cities in revolt will flip to another civ. I read it as cities will begin to turn unproductive, much like when a city is captured.

Dennis discussed it in the Q&A stream last month, and an article said this:

It’s important to keep an eye on what your neighbors are doing, though, as a rival with high tourism and a different set of ideologies could cause cities to flip. Unlike in the past, players can defend against traitorous metropolises by succumbing to the will of the people. Civilization IV was the last time that cities could be “culture flipped,” but unlike with that title, the ideology system provides a way for leaders to react. In the past, there wasn’t much that could be done to avoid cities leaving.

Which explicitly compares the mechanic to Civ 4's city flipping. It really sounds like city flipping is in.

there are actually a lot of possibilites:
- Rebel units appear near the city (contamporary barbarian units)
- City is in revolt and therefore no output at all
- City is ideologically divided. Half the yields are transferred to the civ's capital that is dominant in that ideology.

I would prefer the third option, but other options are possible as well

What I would prefer is all of them! Something like: at Dissidents the city produces fewer yields (don't know about transferring them, although it's a good idea it sounds too complicated to me), at Civil Resistance Rebel units appear around the city, and at Revolutionary Wave there is a turn counter that counts down to the city flipping to the nearest or the most Touristically influential Civ with the Public Opinion's Preferred Ideology.

As I recall, the information shown in the Public Opinion could be either a Global value, based on all of the cities, or the Local value for the worst case city.

If Global, it would imply that a large number of your cities are in that state or worst. If Local, it might suggest that only one or two cities are in that state. In either case, there needs to be a way of identifying those cities, so that you can deal with them, either generally through ideology tenets or specifically by adding suitable buildings.

It sounds to me that it will be Local, with Global happiness having some effect (perhaps cities can't flip when the empire is in positive happiness) and identifying which cities are under threat of Revolt should be available in the new Public Opinion screen mentioned.

The next question regards to what is the effect of a poor Public Opinion setting. As suggested, it could result in unhappiness, poor or no production, the appearance of rebels or barbarians, etc. There is also the possibility, as in Civ IV, for a city to want to switch to a different ideology, and therefore a different civ. Again, would that be the strongest civ with that ideology, or the nearest.

The short answer is that, at present, we do not know how this is going to work out, until we get a video or report from one of the reviewers.

Let's hope that Firaxis decide to give us some hints, rather than wait for the BNW release.

Agreed!

The only thing we know for sure is that dissatisfaction gives unhappiness, so that's not a question. I suspect that the -20 unhappiness barb-spawning revolt mechanic currently in the game is simply being transferred to this mechanic. The idea that a city gets a negative yield modifier is pure speculation afaik.

I really hope they rework happiness bonus at higher levels otherwise this new feature will be working only against the player while AI will be completely unaffected (due to its immense happiness bonus).

I as well. I think they must have, because otherwise this mechanic would never be seen on higher difficulty levels. I can't recall where but there has been other circumstantial evidence supporting this speculation also.

 

[Chris Hill]

but unlike with that title, the ideology system provides a way for leaders to react

which indicates that you can deal with the problem, like changing your ideology. But that then leaves the question of what happens if you don't.

 

[Gamewizard]

It’s important to keep an eye on what your neighbors are doing, though, as a rival with high tourism and a different set of ideologies could cause cities to flip. Unlike in the past, players can defend against traitorous metropolises by succumbing to the will of the people. Civilization IV was the last time that cities could be “culture flipped,” but unlike with that title, the ideology system provides a way for leaders to react. In the past, there wasn’t much that could be done to avoid cities leaving.

Thank you for finding that quote. It changed my mind on the matter.

 

[bagas12]

Hope they implement it to give some nasty civil wars to the runaways civs if not treated careful

 

[Jinzor]

This expansion is gonna be awesome as hell! Can't wait for it.

 

[Cyanfunk]

I wonder if you can march tanks in Brezhnev-style if the dissent gets too unruly.

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

This expansion is gonna be awesome as hell! Can't wait for it.

I'd hardly think of Hell as "awesome."

But yeah, can't wait either.

 

[Seek]

which indicates that you can deal with the problem, like changing your ideology. But that then leaves the question of what happens if you don't.

I think the first effort for dealing with it will be emphasizing culture (which acts as "defense" against Tourism) in your border cities, and switching Ideologies will be a last ditch effort. It has been said (can't remember where, arg) that switching Ideologies will only have a "small" penalty, but I doubt that will be optimal play.

All we know for certain is that cities will eventually flip.:/

Thank you for finding that quote. It changed my mind on the matter.

Sure!

I wonder if you can march tanks in Brezhnev-style if the dissent gets too unruly.

But seriously, I wonder if having a city garrisoned and/or Constabularies and Police Stations will have some effect on this mechanic. Seems logical..

 

[Arachnofiend]

I think the first effort for dealing with it will be emphasizing culture (which acts as "defense" against Tourism) in your border cities, and switching Ideologies will be a last ditch effort. It has been said (can't remember where, arg) that switching Ideologies will only have a "small" penalty, but I doubt that will be optimal play.

I doubt that you will get back your investment in tenets when switching ideologies. If that's all that happens when you switch then it'll be something that you absolutely do not want to do but can do without automatically losing the game if you need to (which is about where it needs to be, I think).

But seriously, I wonder if having a city garrisoned and/or Constabularies and Police Stations will have some effect on this mechanic. Seems logical..

I'm surprised this isn't a tenet for Order or Autocracy. Using military force to quell dissension tends to backfire in free nations, what with the press making sure everyone knows about what you're doing and how awful it is.

 

[bite]

Hmmm, this seems like the best system for one of those short Firiaxis video they have been making, hint, hint Ga1Friday