If Obama was Muslim

[Bill3000]

Yes. I believe they are. I see "mormon values" and "muslim values" as overly conservative. Especially in regards to women.

So what makes you think that a muslim presidential candidate would have those "values"? Besides, when it comes to traditional values towards women, Christianity has it pretty bad as well.

And *mormons*? For god's sake, they were one of the first to grand women to vote in the US.

Catholics also didn't fly a plane into the world trade center.

You must have missed the Troubles... Catholics bombed London and was financed by American Catholics.

 

[Sui Generis]

You seem to assume that Christianity has the same role in the politics of American allies that it has in American politics. It does not. You say they're based on Christian values, but less and less so. Take a look at gay marriage, or drug legalization, or family values, for instance.

Furthermore, the US attitude towards the Israel/Palestine issue is anything BUT objective. Though TBH I don't know who can be objective about that issue.

Laicite I believe it is called. Frnace is almost militaristic secular, lol.

 

[Masquerouge]

This really fails to understand history.

Catholics where the Muslims in 1780. Hell, they were up until 1960.

Not completely gone, btw. Chick's tracts ftw!

http://www.chick.com/information/religions/catholicism/#Church

 

[warpus]

Yes. I believe they are. I see "mormon values" and "muslim values" as overly conservative. Especially in regards to women.

Hmm? There's conservative Christians and conservative Muslims, liberal Christians and liberal Muslims.

 

[Sui Generis]

Catholics also didn't fly a plane into the world trade center.




Look, I know that that particular comparison is ridiculous, but the Catholic situation is completely different than the muslim one.

No, but they did have something called the crusades, lol.

And i'm sorry, but the "situation" is no different. Also, Mormons are American, in fact, they always have, it originated here. It is a sect that started here. I don't see the confliction of interests.

 

[Snowball]

So what makes you think that a muslim presidential candidate would have those "values"? Besides, when it comes to traditional values towards women, Christianity has it pretty bad as well.

And *mormons*? For god's sake, they were one of the first to grand women to vote in the US.


You must have missed the Troubles... Catholics bombed London and was financed by American Catholics.

That's where we differ. I don't see Christianity as denying women's rights. To be fair, I don't think Mormonism does either, but I disagree with some of their beliefs concerning women.

 

[.Shane.]

Catholics also didn't fly a plane into the world trade center.

And... was it all Muslims who did that?

No such thing as Catholic terrorists? Tell that to the English.

Look, I know that that particular comparison is ridiculous, but the Catholic situation is completely different than the muslim one.

Wrong. Catholics were seen w/ the same paranoid fear and intolerance that the Muslims are now viewed with.

Same with Mormons (which makes it so sad that the Mormons, in turn, are quite happy to discriminate against gays, but its not surprising... once you're "in the club" you have to help guard the door, I support). They were pariah once as well.

 

[Masquerouge]

That said, I don't think I've ever once decided on a vote based on someone's religion. In fact, I'd ignore the issue completely except that the media and other voters thrust it in my face so often.

yeah, this is what I was referring to when I said the overly religious tones of political campaigns in the US take some getting used to.

As Sui Generis said, I'm used to French hardcore secularism.

 

[Snowball]

No, but they did have something called the crusades, lol.

And i'm sorry, but the "situation" is no different. Also, Mormons are American, in fact, they always have, it originated here. It is a sect that started here. I don't see the confliction of interests.

The conflict of interest lies in the fact that Mormons want to take over the world and spread around Mormonism.

 

[Masquerouge]

The conflict of interest lies in the fact that Mormons want to take over the world and spread around Mormonism.

Because the other Christians don't want to spread around Christianity?

 

[Bill3000]

That's where we differ. I don't see Christianity as denying women's rights. To be fair, I don't think Mormonism does either, but I disagree with some of their beliefs concerning women.

Uh. Christianity very much did deny women's rights. It's just changed due to the feminist movement. It's still the same in Southern Baptism. And it hasn't changed much in traditionalist Catholicism.

And what beliefs regarding women in Mormonism are you bothered with?

The conflict of interest lies in the fact that Mormons want to take over the world and spread around Mormonism.

What? Conquering it? Speaking of which, um. Non-Mormon Christianity wants to spread around Christianity too.

 

[downtown]

The conflict of interest lies in the fact that Mormons want to take over the world and spread around Mormonism.

And we suck at it too! The Senate Majority leader is a Mormon, we have 7 Mormons in Congress, 2 Govs, and we've had cabinet level officials and Supreme Court Justices. You'd think we'd have at least taken over something besides Provo and Ogden by now.

 

[Tenochtitlan]

It shouldn't matter, but it invariably would. Due to the huge amounts of completely tolerated anti-Muslim and anti-Arab bigotry displayed in this country. No one even thinks to stand up to it, shameful really.

The average response to the charge that Barack Obama is a Muslim and thus unfit and untrustworthy to be president is that "Barack Obama is not a Muslim!", not that "Even if he were it doesn't effect his ability to lead!".

Nicely put.

 

[Sharwood]

Should it matter? No. Would it? Yes. For starters, if he were a Muslim he'd probably have been assassinated by now, if he'd gotten this far. Which he wouldn't. The end.

 

[QuoVadisNation]

It shouldn't matter, but it invariably would. Due to the huge amounts of completely tolerated anti-Muslim and anti-Arab bigotry displayed in this country. No one even thinks to stand up to it, shameful really. . . .

To this I would respond, "So what?"

People have and are entitled to living out their lives in whatever fashion. That means living out their lives in a manner that conflicts with people with different opinions. Every group and country in the entire globe does this for a great deal of necessary reasons - why should a few people, the "bigoted ones," (and not others (not naming of course)) in this country be exempt from this 'privilege' and instead be upheld to a strict relativist schema that is 1) unrealistic and 2) un-reciprocated? Please. Pointing the finger at one group, claiming the group is X, Y, and Z, while pretending the other group is a victim and innocent is simply self-serving, among other things.

People in this country, likely, are adverse to the possibility of a religiously devout Muslim president for the same reason anyone else in any other country would be concerned with having a president they believe mainly represents (or cares about) one particular demographic that isn't the majority in any meaningful way.

On the final note: Liberalism is perfectly fine, and I support the notion of applying it towards human interactions. But it's no excuse for shutting your ears and eyes, and ignoring how democracy with multiple demographics and cultures works in real life.

 

[.Shane.]

And we suck at it too! The Senate Majority leader is a Mormon, we have 7 Mormons in Congress, 2 Govs, and we've had cabinet level officials and Supreme Court Justices.

Thanks for the update. I am now revising my ranking of successful conspiracies:

1. The Jews
2. The gays
3. Amway
4. The Mormons
5. The Masons
6. Gnomes of Zurich

 

[downtown]

Why do you think we're not big fans of the Gays? Sounds like you just figured it out....

 

[Snowball]

And we suck at it too! The Senate Majority leader is a Mormon, we have 7 Mormons in Congress, 2 Govs, and we've had cabinet level officials and Supreme Court Justices. You'd think we'd have at least taken over something besides Provo and Ogden by now.

The reason mormons scare me is that they all vote as a block. As a result, mormons tend to be overrepresented in areas with large numbers of mormons, and they offset the balance or power. I know that's a rather poor description, but that's how it is in my home town, and how it has been historically for Mormons.

 

[Bill3000]

On the final note: Liberalism is perfectly fine, and I support the notion of applying it towards human interactions. But it's not excuse for shutting your ears and eyes, and ignoring how democracy with multiple demographics and cultures works in real life.

Of course there's gonna be problems and tensions, but it's not a matter of shutting ears and eyes, it's a matter of being shamed that the tensions exist. It's a matter of expecting that other Americans have some sort of the same fundamental belief system. It's a matter of expecting that we should be better than that.

It's a matter that we shouldn't have to require someone to be of the majority demographic of a nation in order to be leader of its country.

 

[Sui Generis]

Uh. Christianity very much did deny women's rights. It's just changed due to the feminist movement. It's still the same in Southern Baptism. And it hasn't changed much in traditionalist Catholicism.

And what beliefs regarding women in Mormonism are you bothered with?


What? Conquering it? Speaking of which, um. Non-Mormon Christianity wants to spread around Christianity too.

Thank you.