Iran, the Red Sea, and the West (tm).

[Thorgalaeg]

Which is to say Israel has not been in a threatened state since the 1970s basically.

One thing is to be existentially threatened, as Israel was several times at the beginning of its history, and another one is not being threatened at all as Switzerland or Canada. Currently Israel has developed mighty enough to impose itself over the threats around it to the point many of the open enemies from yesterday has finally accepted the inevitability of the existence of Israel and are even normalizing relations and doing business with it. Still most of the arab countries have not even formal diplomatic relations with Israel. The threat and the hostility (justified or not, we are not talking about that aspect) continue being there, however it cannot materialize anymore. But imagine Israel suddenly losing all its military power. Wouldn't last that much probably.

 

[Crezth]

Has anyone noticed that Inno thinks all his enemies are corrupt, feckless, dissolute, degenerate and just plain stupid to the point where they will inevitably defeat themselves in a very short time frame?

Is this a realistic view or a self-serving one?

What could possibly make it “self-serving” like actually? He’s just analyzing what he thinks are immoral and doomed governments run by criminals who will eventually run it off the tracks. I’m guessing you don’t share his disgust for police kneeling on necks?

 

[Senethro]

What could possibly make it “self-serving” like actually? He’s just analyzing what he thinks are immoral and doomed governments run by criminals who will eventually run it off the tracks. I’m guessing you don’t share his disgust for police kneeling on necks?

Bad systems are not necessarily doomed. Some of them are sufficiently functional as to be a real problem and able to resist reform, or to pass costs externally.

This is a problem that one handed typing castigating ones ideological enemies doesn't address.

 

[Crezth]

I am not so sure I agree the actual criteria is good government is morally good and bad government is morally bad. I actually just think that these systems in general are based on violence coercion and exploitation and that they function for so long as the class antagonisms allow it to function. Eventually they will inevitably contract and force a correction, per the ancient Jubilees. And the herdsmen shall enter the cities once more.

As it stands you have to be reading I think too much news and maybe a little too naive or comfortable to ignore that the contradictions are reaching the breaking point and really the only thing you need to point to as evidence is:

1. There is literally nowhere for the Israeli political context to go after Netanyahu. This usually means the context is overdue for change.
2. American military might and persuasion is at a twenty year nadir.
3. Almost more than half of all Americans are losers or grifters now and forgot how to build airplanes in which American dominance had been based.

 

[Lexicus]

What could possibly make it “self-serving” like actually?

Self-serving in the sense of wishful thinkng, confusing desire for reality.

 

[Lexicus]

But imagine Israel suddenly losing all its military power. Wouldn't last that much probably.

Following up on this line of thought:

 

[Estebonrober]

I am not so sure I agree the actual criteria is good government is morally good and bad government is morally bad. I actually just think that these systems in general are based on violence coercion and exploitation and that they function for so long as the class antagonisms allow it to function. Eventually they will inevitably contract and force a correction, per the ancient Jubilees. And the herdsmen shall enter the cities once more.

As it stands you have to be reading I think too much news and maybe a little too naive or comfortable to ignore that the contradictions are reaching the breaking point and really the only thing you need to point to as evidence is:

1. There is literally nowhere for the Israeli political context to go after Netanyahu. This usually means the context is overdue for change.
2. American military might and persuasion is at a twenty year nadir.
3. Almost more than half of all Americans are losers or grifters now and forgot how to build airplanes in which American dominance had been based.

I both agree with this and disagree with it. I've agreed with it for so long that it has become self-evident that @Senethro has a strong point about bad systems being sustainable despite being terrible for most under those systems.

I've been talking about the consent of the governed since I was a kid raised trad Cath style. I still bring it up from time to time, because it is still relevant.

 

[Lexicus]

A bit like Christians and the Rapture, Communists have been predicting the imminent collapse of capitalism under its own contradictions regularly since like the 1880s.

 

[Crezth]

I both agree with this and disagree with it. I've agreed with it for so long that it has become self-evident that @Senethro has a strong point about bad systems being sustainable despite being terrible for most under those systems.

I've been talking about the consent of the governed since I was a kid raised trad Cath style. I still bring it up from time to time, because it is still relevant.

Yeah, look, this is not about me saying Justice must win and Bad will always be punished. That’s not what I’m saying at all. What I’m saying is that what makes it bad is how self evidently incapable of surviving the present moment it is. It’s tempting to believe maybe that nothing ever happens but yadda yadda decades where weeks happen and weeks where decades happen. We are witnessing in real time the failure of the imperial system to address its own needs. And frankly maybe Inno has a bit more gas in his tank cuz he realizes this was a long time coming. The system as a whole has been septic since 2007. The US military, impressive yes, has been running out of the funds to sustain itself since Iraq and their schedules just get longer and longer every damn year. Those of us been paying attention have noticed that there are trends emerging which actually aren’t just the GDP number, which while impressive somehow still struggle to pull up those damn production schedules. The system been poisoning itself to death ever since. It’s not much different from how the post-WW1 order of Europe far from cemented what seemed like the untouchable heights of British power. They just annexed the Middle East! But it was then by the mid 1930’s you had the many intellectuals of England admitting publicly that the empire was dying.

Now none of this has anything to do with how bad the system is for people under it. People under it are pretty much always going to suffer. How are you going to produce surplus grain for the grain barons without callousing a few hundred million hands? The system is never great no matter how middle class people feel about it. But that doesn’t mean your ability to see and think is limited by an oppressive or depressing reality. Just fudging look at Israel tear itself apart. Now the fascists may have all the world ending fight left in them, but you should never actually believe the trains are really running on time. That’s lesson number one for living in modernity.

 

[Crezth]

Some of you might think “but America won’t fall because nobody can defeat it and nothing can stop the bosses from exploiting its people.” Maybe not on paper. Writ large I agree. But what are the bosses saying is the number one pathology of the last several elections? That they’re not even valid to begin with because they’re stolen or interfered with. These guys are sharpening their knives to start cutting portions off for good. And maybe at the end of the day even America’s adversaries are just too good a business partner to turn down. What could America be, maybe, but the land of all bourgeoisie, even Chinese and Russian ones?

This is how the world ends. Not with a bang, but with the plaintiff wheeze of an ez-cheez bottle squeezing out the last drop of patented cheese product.

 

[Lexicus]

That's "plaintive."

All polities and states collapse in time, that's axiomatic. Predicting it continually until it actually happens doesn't necessarily mean you were right.

It's 1878, and the Long Depression means capitalism will collapse any day now.

It's 1918, and the crisis of the war means capitalism will collapse any day now.

It's 1938, and the Great Depression means capitalism will collapse any day now.

It's 1968, and the protest movements mean capitalism will collapse any day now.

It's 2008, and the great financial crisis means capitalism will collapse any day now.

It's 2020 (sorry, broke the 8 streak) and the covid-19 pandemic means capitalism will collapse any day now.....

 

[Moriarte]

People tend to be excessively optimistic or dead wrong about the future. Early space advances ignited a response from popular culture and state propaganda, many believed we'll have mass flying cars & build off-world colonies in the early 21st century. Now that the time have passed our knowledge about physics and engineering became more clear and it becomes painfully obvious the process will slowly unfold during the next 100 years, far slower than initially thought. Scientists really aren't sure anymore it makes sense to live out there en masse.

Political change can occupy an even larger time span. Correct me if I am wrong, transitions from Slavery to Feudalism to Capitalism took hundreds of years. Space race was subject to slow technological innovation. Political race is subject to readiness of population to live within a certain political framework and readiness of the existing economies to integrate with the new way of life. So, it may be the ideas Inno is broadcasting are correct (in modern analysis) yet it can take hegemon another hundred years to pass the baton. Or more? Or never! The talk of equality can be mesmerising, but capitalism is no toothless fairy. It can conjure up a powerful move towards conservatism, collide one half of the planet with another half.

Keep everyone busy fighting each other for another 100 years. And when we'll have enough of that coming war, we can have nice things.

 

[Estebonrober]

Some of you might think “but America won’t fall because nobody can defeat it and nothing can stop the bosses from exploiting its people.” Maybe not on paper. Writ large I agree. But what are the bosses saying is the number one pathology of the last several elections? That they’re not even valid to begin with because they’re stolen or interfered with. These guys are sharpening their knives to start cutting portions off for good. And maybe at the end of the day even America’s adversaries are just too good a business partner to turn down. What could America be, maybe, but the land of all bourgeoisie, even Chinese and Russian ones?

This is how the world ends. Not with a bang, but with the plaintiff wheeze of an ez-cheez bottle squeezing out the last drop of patented cheese product.

lol its like the anti-"Fallout" end of the world narrative, probably still a lot of vaultech type bunkers out there to be built tho...

I just want to get to the 40k levels of misery before humanity offs itself.

That's "plaintive."

All polities and states collapse in time, that's axiomatic. Predicting it continually until it actually happens doesn't necessarily mean you were right.

It's 1878, and the Long Depression means capitalism will collapse any day now.

It's 1918, and the crisis of the war means capitalism will collapse any day now.

It's 1938, and the Great Depression means capitalism will collapse any day now.

It's 1968, and the protest movements mean capitalism will collapse any day now.

It's 2008, and the great financial crisis means capitalism will collapse any day now.

It's 2020 (sorry, broke the 8 streak) and the covid-19 pandemic means capitalism will collapse any day now.....

oh found the pattern, capitalism will die in 2028, probably by piracy outbreak in the Malaka Strait

 

[amadeus]

(sorry, broke the 8 streak)

You could have gone with 1988, Black Monday and the S&L crunch.

 

[KMRblue1027]

Even Star Trek realized the only thing that ends capitalism is a billion people dying in atomic fire.

 

[Crezth]

That's "plaintive."

All polities and states collapse in time, that's axiomatic. Predicting it continually until it actually happens doesn't necessarily mean you were right.

It's 1878, and the Long Depression means capitalism will collapse any day now.

It's 1918, and the crisis of the war means capitalism will collapse any day now.

It's 1938, and the Great Depression means capitalism will collapse any day now.

It's 1968, and the protest movements mean capitalism will collapse any day now.

It's 2008, and the great financial crisis means capitalism will collapse any day now.

It's 2020 (sorry, broke the 8 streak) and the covid-19 pandemic means capitalism will collapse any day now.....

I hope you realize how stupid this post is when you consider that the word "capitalism" did not even exist before 1850.

 

[Crezth]

And also this is really more a conversation about the end of the American imperial superstructure, it's some can't-analyze-jack's who want it to be a pointless cry for the end of capitalism. End of capitalism? We've still yet barely gotten it started. Not even atomic hellfire can end the power of industrial production. Capitalism might as well be stronger than ever once "American discipline and morality" has finally asphyxiated to death. This is a conversation about how capitalism is the very thing that has no more use for the American empire.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Even Star Trek realized the only thing that ends capitalism is a billion people dying in atomic fire.

Not to mention, the destruction of most world governments. Also it was 600 million.

 

[innonimatu]

What is ending is a particular form of imperialism. And there is nothing new or shocking about that. As was pointed out already, other empires fell in the past 100 years.

Notice who is in a hurry to end the two current attrition wars going on. It's not just because Biden is looking at electoral defeat. The US is deeply involved in both wars but has no achievable victory condition for either war. The original war aims in either case are totally impossible to achieve. Its default when losing is picking the ball in a sulk and going back home. Which it can. Israel is going to have to deal with the problems it created, alone.

 

[Narz]

What is ending is a particular form of imperialism.

What's never ending is human predictions and classifications which are 99% wrong.

The US is deeply involved in both wars but has no achievable victory condition for either war.

That's nothing new. I don't think most militaries try to 'win' wars anymore. That seems to be an outdated framework of what war is and who it serves.