Is This Normal?

[Joij21]

As I've been playing a new game I've noticed something odd. I don't know if it's related to the new civic changes but apparently I'm able to draft units without having the proper civics that would enable drafting.

I'm still in the prehistoric era and as far as I know I don't have any of the civics that would enable it yet.

 

[Toffer90]

Traits can also allow drafting, only the complex traits though.

Warmonger, Aggressive, Protective, and Defensive.
Maybe more, got tired of checking.

 

[Joij21]

Traits can also allow drafting, only the complex traits though.

Warmonger, Aggressive, Protective, and Defensive.
Maybe more, got tired of checking.

Yep, that's exactly what it was. Found out my leader has Imperialistic, and Cruel which combined allow 6 units to be drafted a turn.

Wow, I didn't think traits in this mod would have that much of a fundamental impact on the game. Especially since a lot of times I'm used to mods that give out pretty lame traits that blend in with each other and make little to no difference.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yep, that's exactly what it was. Found out my leader has Imperialistic, and Cruel which combined allow 6 units to be drafted a turn.

Wow, I didn't think traits in this mod would have that much of a fundamental impact on the game. Especially since a lot of times I'm used to mods that give out pretty lame traits that blend in with each other and make little to no difference.

Every day nearly someone tells me how they've discovered that another (different) trait is OP to all others. I have to insist that under the complex traits mod, all traits have superpowers and even moreso when you find the traits they really have synergistic connectivity with. It all depends on how it all works into your play strategies. I'm working towards more refined personalized player AIs eventually that would make better use of refined combination strategies rather than vaguely following categorically similar themes alone to inadvertently generate more of these synergistic benefits.

 

[Somebody613]

Yep, that's exactly what it was. Found out my leader has Imperialistic, and Cruel which combined allow 6 units to be drafted a turn.

Wow, I didn't think traits in this mod would have that much of a fundamental impact on the game. Especially since a lot of times I'm used to mods that give out pretty lame traits that blend in with each other and make little to no difference.

And lose 1 population.
How's THAT for OP?
Either you play on a slow speed (and population replenishment takes forever), or you play on a fast speed (and building units is still better than drafting them).
UNLESS (and I haven't tested it) you can draft even at population 1, the same way starvation can be ignored at population 1.
But I wouldn't think it should be possible, logically.

 

[Thunderbrd]

And lose 1 population.
How's THAT for OP?
Either you play on a slow speed (and population replenishment takes forever), or you play on a fast speed (and building units is still better than drafting them).
UNLESS (and I haven't tested it) you can draft even at population 1, the same way starvation can be ignored at population 1.
But I wouldn't think it should be possible, logically.

Perhaps combine with traits that make food and population growth seriously boosted? Then you're not so bound to production as a must and can focus more on food and translate that food into power in an unexpected burst whenever you wish? Then perhaps combine with a trait that automatically drafts when you take a city so now the city that was going to starve down anyhow after conquest due to mass unhappiness has just lost a lot of its uselessly unhappy population out the gate to becoming a part of your growing army through conquest...

Just... ideas. That said, I don't think he was trying to say that drafting was OP necessarily. He's probably more used to how it usually is only something one can do under a restrictive one or two civics.

 

[Somebody613]

Every day nearly someone tells me how they've discovered that another (different) trait is OP to all others.

That's actually your own statement, lol.
And I did ask whether you COULD draft at pop 1 or not?
If not - well, like I said before. (And I predict it being the fact.)
If yes - now, THAT is definitely OPed.
So, can you?
And anyways, it takes TONS more food (aka TIME) to produce an additional point of population, compared to simply building the same amount of units manually.
Either both take forever - or both take no time at all.
But I've tried playing on both speed extremities (max slow and max fast), and in both cases it simply isn't worth it in my practical opinion.
Sure, I might be wrong an/or biased, of course, but that's how it looks to ME.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That's actually your own statement, lol.

Yes but I wasn't accusing him of saying it. I was saying that is the result of how deeply I crafted traits to make an impact that they now come across to many as individually or in combination being OP, which is largely a perception based on how much more lightly traits previously influenced the game.

And I did ask whether you COULD draft at pop 1 or not?

I don't think you can.

And anyways, it takes TONS more food (aka TIME) to produce an additional point of population, compared to simply building the same amount of units manually.
Either both take forever - or both take no time at all.
But I've tried playing on both speed extremities (max slow and max fast), and in both cases it simply isn't worth it in my practical opinion.
Sure, I might be wrong an/or biased, of course, but that's how it looks to ME.

Again, I think it depends on a lot of factors. If you're playing with food boosting and population boosting traits, the perspective may be very different. You're probably mathematically correct in a usual sense, though if your primary military production city is surrounded by LOTS of food producing bonuses, that could also create a very different calculation.

 

[Blazenclaw]

You're probably mathematically correct in a usual sense, though if your primary military production city is surrounded by LOTS of food producing bonuses, that could also create a very different calculation.

Might be interesting to analyze where, if at all, there's a crossover between 1) growing a city for pop then drafting vs 2) food-to-production for military units via civics. Obviously drafting always has a place for last-ditch city defense, but it may be possible in edge cases (1-pop city lategame with many food multipliers) that growing a pop for drafting is more hammer efficient than directly converting food to hammers.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Might be interesting to analyze where, if at all, there's a crossover between 1) growing a city for pop then drafting vs 2) food-to-production for military units via civics. Obviously drafting always has a place for last-ditch city defense, but it may be possible in edge cases (1-pop city lategame with many food multipliers) that growing a pop for drafting is more hammer efficient than directly converting food to hammers.

If you remember from Vanilla BtS, this conceptual strategy was always an intended strategic alternative for high food / low production centers - though they did express it more through the slave-whipping hurry mechanism. I was thinking I might be able to bring that back a bit as a specialized approach.

 

[Joij21]

Every day nearly someone tells me how they've discovered that another (different) trait is OP to all others. I have to insist that under the complex traits mod, all traits have superpowers and even moreso when you find the traits they really have synergistic connectivity with. It all depends on how it all works into your play strategies. I'm working towards more refined personalized player AIs eventually that would make better use of refined combination strategies rather than vaguely following categorically similar themes alone to inadvertently generate more of these synergistic benefits.

And lose 1 population.
How's THAT for OP?
Either you play on a slow speed (and population replenishment takes forever), or you play on a fast speed (and building units is still better than drafting them).
UNLESS (and I haven't tested it) you can draft even at population 1, the same way starvation can be ignored at population 1.
But I wouldn't think it should be possible, logically.

Perhaps combine with traits that make food and population growth seriously boosted? Then you're not so bound to production as a must and can focus more on food and translate that food into power in an unexpected burst whenever you wish? Then perhaps combine with a trait that automatically drafts when you take a city so now the city that was going to starve down anyhow after conquest due to mass unhappiness has just lost a lot of its uselessly unhappy population out the gate to becoming a part of your growing army through conquest...

Just... ideas. That said, I don't think he was trying to say that drafting was OP necessarily. He's probably more used to how it usually is only something one can do under a restrictive one or two civics.

That's actually your own statement, lol.
And I did ask whether you COULD draft at pop 1 or not?
If not - well, like I said before. (And I predict it being the fact.)
If yes - now, THAT is definitely OPed.
So, can you?
And anyways, it takes TONS more food (aka TIME) to produce an additional point of population, compared to simply building the same amount of units manually.
Either both take forever - or both take no time at all.
But I've tried playing on both speed extremities (max slow and max fast), and in both cases it simply isn't worth it in my practical opinion.
Sure, I might be wrong an/or biased, of course, but that's how it looks to ME.

Yes but I wasn't accusing him of saying it. I was saying that is the result of how deeply I crafted traits to make an impact that they now come across to many as individually or in combination being OP, which is largely a perception based on how much more lightly traits previously influenced the game.

I don't think you can.

Again, I think it depends on a lot of factors. If you're playing with food boosting and population boosting traits, the perspective may be very different. You're probably mathematically correct in a usual sense, though if your primary military production city is surrounded by LOTS of food producing bonuses, that could also create a very different calculation.

Might be interesting to analyze where, if at all, there's a crossover between 1) growing a city for pop then drafting vs 2) food-to-production for military units via civics. Obviously drafting always has a place for last-ditch city defense, but it may be possible in edge cases (1-pop city lategame with many food multipliers) that growing a pop for drafting is more hammer efficient than directly converting food to hammers.

If you remember from Vanilla BtS, this conceptual strategy was always an intended strategic alternative for high food / low production centers - though they did express it more through the slave-whipping hurry mechanism. I was thinking I might be able to bring that back a bit as a specialized approach.

Ok guys don't get your taco's in a twist! I was complementing the mod not claiming it was OP.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok guys don't get your taco's in a twist! I was complementing the mod not claiming it was OP.

I thought that was what you were saying as well so yeah, I followed. My comments sound like I'm responding to you saying that you were complaining perhaps but I meant them more conversationally in general to add to what you were saying.