Just Realized How Much I'll Miss the Old France...

ahawk

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So, I fired up a Pangea, Small, Standard, Emperor game as France for old time's sake to soak in the ol' glory days. Nothing too frustrating: I can beat Immortal, and on rare occasion can beat Deity if I'm focused and have a day or two just to play games and not work or whatever. Just having fun with them one last time before I forget, as BNW is now coming up within almost a month (~5 weeks).

I realized how much I'm going to miss this version of France right from turn 1.

First off, +2 culture per city is a superb bonus right out of the gates: you pick up the first couple of SPs at a very fast pace, comparable only to popping a culture goody hut or killing a quick two or three barbs as Monty. Really, France's UA is one of the only UA's that is guaranteed to bring a nice bonus right from turn 1. When BNW comes out, the new UA 'City of Light' that affects Great Work tourism rates in the capital will probably be nice, but tourism seems like it only really comes into play in the mid-game and later, and losing that early +2 culture per city is likely going to be a bit of a nerf to France despite whatever 'City of Light' adds.

Secondly, the Foreign Legion is a unit that can crush enemies when you go on the offensive. It's one of those few gunpowder units that I bother with, as the Foreign Lands bonus gives them the combat strength to hold up against numbers of enemies that the standard GWI really can't. An army of ten Foreign Legions with a few arty and a couple of GWFighters and GWBombers, and it's pretty easy to steam-roll any AI that hasn't gotten to standard infantry and standard bombers and fighters. BNW allowing anyone to get the Foreign Legion is a fun idea, but only getting 6 of them isn't going to cut it. The one up-side to the new way they'll become available is that it sounds like you get all 6 simultaneously, which would be very handy, allowing you to reinforce your army very abruptly and easily. But I'm not sure this is confirmed beyond a doubt yet, that you get all of them at once.

Third, I rather liked that the culture bonus to the current France was truly free: going back to my first point, it's nice to get a bonus right on turn 1. The Chateau UI might yield good culture once you can build it in some numbers, but that's going to be a ways into the game, I imagine. I don't think the Chateau has been fully explained anywhere, yet, so I don't want to jump the gun, but it seems like a bit of a let-down after the way France gets culture now, where it gets it for free, per city, rather than by having to tech up to a certain point and send a bunch of workers out to improve tiles.

Musketeers will still be around though, so that helps.

Ultimately, I'm expecting BNW to be pretty fun, and to fix some annoying issues that have been clinging on since vanilla. After all, doing away with gold-yield along rivers and letting you get gold thru trade-routes fixes the old, old, all-the-way-back-to-vanilla issue of getting a start that doesn't have a single river tile for 20 tiles in any direction of your initial settler. Stuff like that will be great. But as a big France fan (my profile's avatar probably gives that away), I have to say I'm really hoping the overhaul doesn't end up slightly nerfing them.
 
You're right, the +2 culture from cities is amazing at the beginning of a game and helps you REXing while still being able to get those SPs.
As for the Foreign Legion, I don't use it that much, since it is around for like 1 tech or something (also something that should have been fixed in BNW: make the GWI last longer!!). The musketeer kicks ass though.
 
I think free culture is the main reason why France was reworked. Static bonuses have little effect on your playstyle. You're more encouraged to settle (as bonus is per city) and probably want to hit new eras faster to not spend all SPs to ancient trees. But that's it.

BNW France is focused on the new gameplay mechanics and forces gameplay tied to it.
 
I don't think there's much to miss as I'm pretty sure France will retain the old culture bonus in addition to the new one. The new ability was 'double theming bonuses in the capital'. Afaik you only get theming bonuses if you have the right works in the same buildings, and the only pre-Museum building with two GW slots I have seen so far is the Great Library. I find it very unlikely that France will get an ability that only kicks in during the Renaissance era unless you build a specific wonder in Paris. If they really remove the free 2 :c5culture:, the Chateux better be the best UI in the game.
 
Now that I think of it, are the new double theming bonuses for France in all of their cities?

Nope, just in Paris.

You would think seeing how Tourism doesn't come into play until late game they could have both the old and new UAs together and have it switch upon researching steam power. Then France would be both culturally offensive and defensive.
 
From what I can tell, one of the reasons France's UA was changed would be due to this scenario:
Player, using France, is in a tight cultural race with Brazil, who is influential over every other Civ. If Brazil's tourism gets much higher, then they would win the Culture Victory. The player has researched every technology but Steam Power, they are forced to research it, the culture in their 20-city empire drops by 50 or so points, and they lose the game. Or, if someone's not close to winning Culture Victory, due to your lower culture other Civs with different ideologies might be influential over you suddenly, then your Ideology's Public Opinion would suddenly go down, you'd lose happiness, your cities would begin revolting, etc.
 
Old France had nice traits but they didn't strike me as an overly unique playstyle. I liked the Foreign Legion, though.

New France strikes me as weaker, though. I don't fully understand tourism, but it seems their ability has a narrower range of use. Just as important, they got rid of a good unit. Hopefully, the Chateau makes up for this.
 
I whole heartedly agree. I hate how they've turned my glorious cultural warriors, and one of my favorite sides in the game, into a nation of beatnik art loving hippies, going with the steriotype that France is a nation of artists and performers rather than the truth: that they have been, and in many ways still are, one of the greatest military powerhouses of europe, and indeed the world, who also just happen to be good with the paintbrush.
 
I whole heartedly agree. I hate how they've turned my glorious cultural warriors, and one of my favorite sides in the game, into a nation of beatnik art loving hippies, going with the steriotype that France is a nation of artists and performers rather than the truth: that they have been, and in many ways still are, one of the greatest military powerhouses of europe, and indeed the world, who also just happen to be good with the paintbrush.

To be fair, every civ is a stereotype of certain things. China focuses on war when they could be so many other things. America has zero aspects of culture and science despite their influences in both, etc.
 
I won't miss old France a bit.

France will probably be big land and culturally offensive in BNW, even bigger headache than now that not only he runs away with over expansion, but also culturally beating you to not dare waging a war against him.
 
To be fair, every civ is a stereotype of certain things. China focuses on war when they could be so many other things. America has zero aspects of culture and science despite their influences in both, etc.

Oh, you're absolutely right. We need stereotypes in civ, and I'm not saying that in the "stogy old racist" way, I say that in a "there is physically no way we can fit the entirety of +40 civilizations, many of which have lasted one or several thousand years, into this game" kind of way. However, most of the stereotypes are at least representative pf long periods of the civilization's history, while as "city of light" only covers the past 120 years (of this 1200 year old people) AT BEST. What I am saying is that of the stereotypes, ancién regime + legionaire is representative of a far longer and much more influential part of french history rather than simply its modern "Paris is very visited" thing. It covers much more of the history of france, is better representative of them as a whole, and is likely much more fun to play as.
 
I just hope they didn't tweak Napoleon's AI personality much. He is usually a worthy adversary.
 
One thing that worries me about the new France is the Aesthetics finisher. It gives double the theming bonuses from museums and wonders fro all your cities. Isn't that just a better version of the French UA. Since France is now emphatically a culture civ, why would they want to avoid the Aesthetics tree.
 
One thing that worries me about the new France is the Aesthetics finisher. It gives double the theming bonuses from museums and wonders fro all your cities. Isn't that just a better version of the French UA. Since France is now emphatically a culture civ, why would they want to avoid the Aesthetics tree.

Most likely Paris with Aesthetics finisher will get 4 times more bonuses. So if France manage to build Louvre, they'll rip everybody to pieces.
 
The problem with that is the new achievement for France is getting the maximum theme bonus of 16 on the Louvre. With 4 slots at 2 each the Louvre offers 8 base so 16 is only double. Why not make the achievement the true maximum of 32 or 24, depending on how they stack the multipliers.
 
The problem with that is the new achievement for France is getting the maximum theme bonus of 16 on the Louvre. With 4 slots at 2 each the Louvre offers 8 base so 16 is only double. Why not make the achievement the true maximum of 32 or 24, depending on how they stack the multipliers.

Is the new achievement not taking into account the aesthetics finisher really a problem? Are we that desperate for things to complain about?
 
The problem with that is the new achievement for France is getting the maximum theme bonus of 16 on the Louvre. With 4 slots at 2 each the Louvre offers 8 base so 16 is only double. Why not make the achievement the true maximum of 32 or 24, depending on how they stack the multipliers.

You have got your calculation all wrong !
It's :

3x2=6 for different eras
3x2=6 for different civs
2x2=4 for Artefacts

6+6+4=16
 
I'm not that desperate. We don't have any other evidence if the bonuses stack. Since that is the only released information that actually touches upon the issue I brought up. IF they don't stack it seems really weird and I hope there is something else to the UA.

I felt the same way when we first heard about Carnival but the note about increased GWAM production made that okay. Though it is telling that they heavily buffed the brazilwood camp since they first talked about it, and nerfed the Ducal stable.
 
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