King Solomon's Mines

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

What should King Solomon's Mines be?
A. Natural Wonder (As in Civ5)
(Again not really 'Natural')
B. World Wonder
And build under what conditions?
B1. Over a resource plot that can only be tapped by mining
B2. Next to the aforemented resource plot
B3. Other....................
C. Don't include this one anymore please.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I remember it from civ 5, but I guess it kind of mythological.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

If it would be anything in game, it should be a Wonder.

"King Solomon's MInes" being based originally on a 19th century book of fiction would fall into the same category as the Fountain of Youth and similar fictitious 'Wonders'.

The tourist destination called King Solomon's Mines in Israel's Timna region is a large archeological copper smelting and mining complex originally excavated right after World War One, but more recent research has shown that it has more Egyptian than Israeli/Judean connections (like, the remains of an Egyptian temple at the site).

On the other hand, Hacinebi and Arslantepe (modern names) were both copper complexes including both mines and smelters established in eastern Anatolia to 'feed' copper materials to Uruk and other cities in Mesopotamia back around 3700 - 3300 BCE, so the idea of a Great Mine Complex is not fictional at all.

So, if you have a Copper deposit and Mining (or Surface Mining) you could build a Wonder called King Solomon's Mines, which would give a boost of Production and Luxury/Happiness, maybe even a Trade Good, all of which are associated with the original legendary complex and the actual Mesopotamian mining complexes.

 

[pokiehl]

I think this was cool as a natural wonder in Civ 5. I’d like to see it return that way.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think this was cool as a natural wonder in Civ 5. I’d like to see it return that way.

A Natural Wonder copper complex, though, wouldn't be Solomon's, which were developed and worked with mines and smelters, and so not really 'Natural'.​

​

IF we were to have a copper-based Natural Wonder, I suggest it would be the copper deposits that drove the Old Copper Complex of North America's Great Lakes region. Natives there from about 7 - 6500 BCE found veins of copper touching or near the surface that were 99% pure copper, so that they could cold work (there is still debate about whether they managed to actually smelt or alloy any of the metal) copper objects from needles to axes-heads and knives, and traded them all the way to Florida across half the continent. There were quarries/mines for these shallow, near surface deposits at Isle Royale and the Keweenaw Peninsula of Lake Superior among other sites across (modern) upper Michigan and Wisconsin.​

​

Not, perhaps, as easy to remember as King Solomon's Mines, but a better model for a Natural Wonder, while a man-made copper center like 'Solomon's mines' in the near east, or the historical equivalents that fed Uruk, are a better model for a (man-made) Wonder.​

 

[pokiehl]

A Natural Wonder copper complex, though, wouldn't be Solomon's, which were developed and worked with mines and smelters, and so not really 'Natural'.​

​

IF we were to have a copper-based Natural Wonder, I suggest it would be the copper deposits that drove the Old Copper Complex of North America's Great Lakes region. Natives there from about 7 - 6500 BCE found veins of copper touching or near the surface that were 99% pure copper, so that they could cold work (there is still debate about whether they managed to actually smelt or alloy any of the metal) copper objects from needles to axes-heads and knives, and traded them all the way to Florida across half the continent. There were quarries/mines for these shallow, near surface deposits at Isle Royale and the Keweenaw Peninsula of Lake Superior among other sites across (modern) upper Michigan and Wisconsin.​

​

Not, perhaps, as easy to remember as King Solomon's Mines, but a better model for a Natural Wonder, while a man-made copper center like 'Solomon's mines' in the near east, or the historical equivalents that fed Uruk, are a better model for a (man-made) Wonder.​

Sure, I know “natural wonder” is a misnomer for things like Solomon’s Mines or Paititi (which is in Civ 6). But I’d find it more interesting to see Solomon’s Mines rather than a real natural metal mine.

I just think having these sorts of mythical structures already on the map gives the map a really cool lived-in feeling. And they’re so few and far in between in these games that I don’t think it warrants changing the “natural wonder” nomenclature to something else which would probably be clunky and forced.

I’m also heavily in favor of Bermuda Triangle returning but that’s another thread

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Sure, I know “natural wonder” is a misnomer for things like Solomon’s Mines or Paititi (which is in Civ 6). But I’d find it more interesting to see Solomon’s Mines rather than a real natural metal mine.

I just think having these sorts of mythical structures already on the map gives the map a really cool lived-in feeling. And they’re so few and far in between in these games that I don’t think it warrants changing the “natural wonder” nomenclature to something else which would probably be clunky and forced.

I’m also heavily in favor of Bermuda Triangle returning but that’s another thread

Largely agree. I have an extended list of 'Wonders' and potential Wonders of all kinds dating back well into Prehistory - Stonehenge wasn't the only one that could be either buildable or already on the landscape to be found. The more variety on the map, the better.

The Solomonic Mines, however, were developed during the time of the game - post 2000 BCE, in fact - so really deserve to be a buildable Wonder or Improvement or something.

In a 'Perfect 4X', I'd love to see Natural and comparable buildable Wonders, so both a Special Deposit like the Lake Superior formation that you can exploit for Production/Luxury if you happen to be near it, and a buildable King Solomon's Mines Wonder that gives similar advantages but can be built on any Copper deposit. As a rule, I don't think there should ever be only one way to obtain some bonus or accomplish something in the game - some kind of alternative should always be available somehow.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Sure, I know “natural wonder” is a misnomer for things like Solomon’s Mines or Paititi (which is in Civ 6). But I’d find it more interesting to see Solomon’s Mines rather than a real natural metal mine.

I just think having these sorts of mythical structures already on the map gives the map a really cool lived-in feeling. And they’re so few and far in between in these games that I don’t think it warrants changing the “natural wonder” nomenclature to something else which would probably be clunky and forced.

I agree with this, but I find the idea of discovering King Solomon's Mines in ≈ 3000 BC immersion-breaking chronology-wise.

What I would suggest is go the AoE approach and have a 'Natural Wonder' like 'Dwarven Mines', and something like 'Ruins of the Elven Capital', etc. so you have this sense of lore with some tantalisingly fantastical elements.

 

[pokiehl]

Largely agree. I have an extended list of 'Wonders' and potential Wonders of all kinds dating back well into Prehistory - Stonehenge wasn't the only one that could be either buildable or already on the landscape to be found. The more variety on the map, the better.

The Solomonic Mines, however, were developed during the time of the game - post 2000 BCE, in fact - so really deserve to be a buildable Wonder or Improvement or something.

I hear your point about Solomon's Mines being suitable to be a buildable wonder, but I also have to imagine that the folks who got all up in arms about stuff like the Fountain of Youth, Solomon's Mines, etc. in the first place would raise even more of an issue if these sorts of things were buildable. Then again, the Hanging Gardens are kind of mythical too depending on how you look at it...

In a 'Perfect 4X', I'd love to see Natural and comparable buildable Wonders, so both a Special Deposit like the Lake Superior formation that you can exploit for Production/Luxury if you happen to be near it, and a buildable King Solomon's Mines Wonder that gives similar advantages but can be built on any Copper deposit. As a rule, I don't think there should ever be only one way to obtain some bonus or accomplish something in the game - some kind of alternative should always be available somehow.

Interesting idea!

I agree with this, but I find the idea of discovering King Solomon's Mines in ≈ 3000 BC immersion-breaking chronology-wise.

What I would suggest is go the AoE approach and have a 'Natural Wonder' like 'Dwarven Mines', and something like 'Ruins of the Elven Capital', etc. so you have this sense of lore with some tantalisingly fantastical elements.

Stuff like building the Hanging Gardens as the English already precludes historiographical immersion to me. I'm sure we could make quite the exhaustive list of immersion-breaking stuff in the game.

I don't really like Anglo-centric high fantasy stuff. Maybe as an optional game mode for people who enjoy that. I'd rather that even the fantastical content the game gets have some sort of basis in human history.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Sure, I know “natural wonder” is a misnomer for things like Solomon’s Mines or Paititi (which is in Civ 6). But I’d find it more interesting to see Solomon’s Mines rather than a real natural metal mine.

I just think having these sorts of mythical structures already on the map gives the map a really cool lived-in feeling. And they’re so few and far in between in these games that I don’t think it warrants changing the “natural wonder” nomenclature to something else which would probably be clunky and forced.

I’m also heavily in favor of Bermuda Triangle returning but that’s another thread

I believe that it is Civ Rev who had these and upon. Discovery they were given a one time bonus and then disappeared from the map. They were called Artifacts, but “Mythological Wonder” could work just as well. They could also produce a great work called an artifact.

“Natural things” like Fountain of Youth and “man made” like Atlantis could both fit this category.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I don't really like Anglo-centric high fantasy stuff. Maybe as an optional game mode for people who enjoy that. I'd rather that even the fantastical content the game gets have some sort of basis in human history.

There are enough 'fantastical' things in actual history, IMHO, that there is no need (except marketability) to ring in pseudo-Tolkeinic fantasy.

You want 'Dwarven Mines'? How about the vanadium-laced iron deposits in southwestern India, from which they produced 'Wootz' steel - high-grade steel ingots in 400 BCE, from which, among other 'wonders', they produced steel body armor (supposedly) worn by Alexander the Great. Of course, the quantities weren't enormous, but the exported material may have been the basis for the high reputation of Damascus and Toledo blades later

You want Fantastic Alternate History? By the 2nd century CE the Romans had all the technological basics to build steam engines: the crank and connecting rod to transmit power, Hero’s aerolipile generating steam power, the cylinder and piston from metal force pumps, non-return valves from water pumps, gearing from water mills. Talk about upsetting the linear Tech Tree!

Fantastical People? Alcibiades, Narses, Shaprut, Great Montrose - I've said it before, histiory is full of Real People who would be unbelievable if they were the subjects of novels.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

I don't really like Anglo-centric high fantasy stuff. Maybe as an optional game mode for people who enjoy that. I'd rather that even the fantastical content the game gets have some sort of basis in human history.

There are enough 'fantastical' things in actual history, IMHO, that there is no need (except marketability) to ring in pseudo-Tolkeinic fantasy.

I only mentioned those because I have just recently finished Lord of the Rings. The point was to have fantastical elements in the game before the game start. Don't want Anglo-centrism? You could go for Iram of the Pillars, or something more generic, that just says 'Here were giants, no-one knows where they went'

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

At this point in time is there much difference in a wonder like the Pyramids which were built in circa 2400 BCE and a natural wonder? When they were built I would bet the Egyptians learned something usesful about engineering as well as getting to use them for there intended purpose.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Largely agree. I have an extended list of 'Wonders' and potential Wonders of all kinds dating back well into Prehistory - Stonehenge wasn't the only one that could be either buildable or already on the landscape to be found. The more variety on the map, the better.

The Solomonic Mines, however, were developed during the time of the game - post 2000 BCE, in fact - so really deserve to be a buildable Wonder or Improvement or something.

In a 'Perfect 4X', I'd love to see Natural and comparable buildable Wonders, so both a Special Deposit like the Lake Superior formation that you can exploit for Production/Luxury if you happen to be near it, and a buildable King Solomon's Mines Wonder that gives similar advantages but can be built on any Copper deposit. As a rule, I don't think there should ever be only one way to obtain some bonus or accomplish something in the game - some kind of alternative should always be available somehow.

Enabling conditions please (Tech or Civic)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Enabling conditions please (Tech or Civic)

Are you asking for a tech or civic to potentially unlock Solomon's Mines? How about Mining?