[RD] LGBTQ news

[The_J]

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5 new study by the university of Groningen, so no crazy American or British politics involved, luckily.

The summary of the article:

Adolescence is an important period for the development of gender identity. We studied the development of gender non-contentedness, i.e., unhappiness with being the gender aligned with one’s sex, from early adolescence to young adulthood, and its association with self-concept, behavioral and emotional problems, and adult sexual orientation. Participants were 2772 adolescents (53% male) from the Tracking Adolescents’ Individual Lives Survey population and clinical cohort. Data from six waves were included (ages 11–26). Gender non-contentedness was assessed with the item “I wish to be of the opposite sex” from the Youth and Adult Self-Report at all six waves. Behavioral and emotional problems were measured by total scores of these scales at all six waves. Self-concept was assessed at age 11 using the Global Self-Worth and Physical Appearance subscales of the Self-Perception Profile for Children. Sexual orientation was assessed at age 22 by self-report. In early adolescence, 11% of participants reported gender non-contentedness. The prevalence decreased with age and was 4% at the last follow-up (around age 26). Three developmental trajectories of gender non-contentedness were identified: no gender non-contentedness (78%), decreasing gender non-contentedness (19%), and increasing gender non-contentedness (2%). Individuals with an increasing gender non-contentedness more often were female and both an increasing and decreasing trajectory were associated with a lower global self-worth, more behavioral and emotional problems, and a non-heterosexual sexual orientation. Gender non-contentedness, while being relatively common during early adolescence, in general decreases with age and appears to be associated with a poorer self-concept and mental health throughout development.

The main take-away:

• In early youth, 11% of participants reported gender non-contentedness
• At the last point of the survey 4% of the participants reported gender non-contentedness
• One of the conclusions is that feeling for at least some time gender non-contentedness is a normal part of growing of for at least some people
• In general gender non-contentedness is associated with a diminished feeling of self worth. The study cannot make any causal inference, so it's not possible to say if less self confidence leads to feeling less contend with someone's gender, or feeling like not living with someone's gender leads to the feeling of less self-worth
• In general the feeling of gender non-contentedness also decreased for most people over time, and got worse for only some people. Also here, it's not possible to say if changing gender could have lead to more contentedness

 

[Crezth]

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5 new study by the university of Groningen, so no crazy American or British politics involved, luckily.

That does not mean that no politics are involved, nor even that this study is good or correct for it.

 

[The_J]

At least the worst were not involved, I hope

 

[Crezth]

Well just from the blurb you posted it doesn’t look like their methods were remotely rigorous. Pity

 

[The_J]

Luckily this is an open access publication, means it is possible for everyone to read the whole thing and check through the methodology.
I do also think that it would have been better to have the surveys not that far apart, that would have been very valuable to e.g. see at which point in time it would be most reliable to determine if someone should transition or rather wait and to determine it later. But given how many people were surveyed, and that this was not the main purpose of this survey, I think the timing can be considered sufficient.

 

[Gorbles]

At least the worst were not involved, I hope

Three seconds on the page gave me this (the parent publication).

The official publication of the International Academy of Sex Research (IASR), Archives of Sexual Behavior publishes scientific research on sex, gender, and sexuality.

...

Editor
Kenneth J. Zucker

I would humbly submit that this means it isn't free of US politics, given Zucker's reputation in the field. And if you have to ask me to explain, again, that's the politics you were hoping this was free of. I'd rather avoid it (at least here).

 

[The_J]

Guess it just ends up everywhere :/.
The good part is that editors of academic journals do not have any influence what is written in a manuscript and cannot change anything in it. They only decide the manuscript is suitable or not. Obviously that has an impact, but not on the content of this manuscript itself.

 

[Gorbles]

Yeah, I believe that decision by itself is probably relevant here. And yes, also, it does mean that the context is everywhere.

Beyond that one of the authors is a member of IASR also, and she's written a lot about gender identity and trans folk, but I haven't read deeply enough (and lack the stats knowhow) to evaluate it further than that. The IASR has a storied history with trans rights but that doesn't mean everyone in it is similarly flawed.

That said, it's 2024 and Zucker is still the editor here. That's not a promising sign. But regardless I leave the academic critique to literally anyone, as literally anyone could do a better job than me.

 

[schlaufuchs]

It seems like there are some pretty serious limitations, both in the population selection and in the questionnaire itself.

I’m rather curious as to why you referenced this story here? Seeing as how the purpose of the paper was to evaluate “gender non-contentedness” in a general population and not in a specifically queer one. I don’t really see how the findings would correspond to queer news, save that women as a population tend to express gender dissatisfaction, an understandable trend given the entire social gender system is constructed so as to oppress and exploit us.

 

[The_J]

I would think that a general population survey about when the image of someone's gender is more or less stable would be interesting for trans people...? (even if limited, as this survey was not focused on this quesiton)
If you drill down the data, someone might be able to see at which point in time the least changes happen anymore. This would allow a better determination about when it is sensible for a teenager to transition, or if you should rather wait longer because the gender identity is not fully formed yet. I do think this has major implications for a variety of issues.

 

[Senethro]

I would think that a general population survey about when the image of someone's gender is more or less stable would be interesting for trans people...? (even if limited, as this survey was not focused on this quesiton)
If you drill down the data, someone might be able to see at which point in time the least changes happen anymore. This would allow a better determination about when it is sensible for a teenager to transition, or if you should rather wait longer because the gender identity is not fully formed yet. I do think this has major implications for a variety of issues.

Or maybe it should be them and their physician doing a cost/benefit for them, and not a statistically average, perfectly spherical model of a human.

 

[NinjaCow64]

I would think that a general population survey about when the image of someone's gender is more or less stable would be interesting for trans people...? (even if limited, as this survey was not focused on this quesiton)
If you drill down the data, someone might be able to see at which point in time the least changes happen anymore. This would allow a better determination about when it is sensible for a teenager to transition, or if you should rather wait longer because the gender identity is not fully formed yet. I do think this has major implications for a variety of issues.

There are multiple limitations to this study from that angle, the most pressing one being that this is a study of a general population as opposed to a study of a trans population. Presumably, even the children who were expressing gender discontent in this survey did not ever see a gender clinic (if the children who did express discontent got medical care for their discontent than that kind of invalidates the study) as gender clinics are traditionally gatekept to all children but those with the strongest dysphoria.

 

[madviking]

Gender non-contentedness was assessed with the item “I wish to be of the opposite sex”

This definition is useless--garbage methodology. You're reducing the rich tapestry of queer identity and self-expression to a binary option? Let alone the most extreme option??? It's like asking people if they like their parents or think they should be summarily executed. I have no clue (beyond being really cynical about the researchers' ulterior motives) why this definition was uncritically selected, especially when their own examples seem less than convincing?

To illustrate the relation between these concepts; a young adolescent girl who mostly likes things seen as typical for boys and who dislikes the changes she goes through during puberty, might (temporarily) experience gender non-contentedness, although she might not experience gender dysphoria or wish to transition from female to male.

This feels like (at best) a misleading example and (at worst) a complete botched understanding of things. First and foremost, is the weird distillation of sex/gender to liking things that "seem" normal for one gender or another. Second of all, again, is to ignore the multitude of queer identities that are not fully mashing a button to change sex. I honestly feel kinda insulted reading this methodology because it's so apparently clear that it's done by the blandest scientists who don't understand what they're researching and are forcing a multitude of square pegs into round holes.

Finally, people were less unhappy as they left puberty? Gee whiz social scientists, crack yourselves a cold one, you deserve it after a long and arduous project like that!

 

[The_J]

Or maybe it should be them and their physician doing a cost/benefit for them, and not a statistically average, perfectly spherical model of a human.

Oh, I hope this is a case, that the doctors take their time and evaluate a case properly. But for medicine, you should be aware that being the statistically average model human is the best thing that can happen to you. For anything you get there are effective treatments, cheap medicines and experienced physicians. if you ever get in a position where you need a customized treatment for only you, then you are probably in deep faeces, as you might have a brain cancer or similar.
This applies to here to. it is an advantage if the physician can say on statistical data that e.g. your should should transition now, because the data shows that other children with the same characteristics will still feel discontent 10 years on with less self worth. or that they should not, because everything could change next year and should be checked again.
Staristics help to make a custom treatment more general and effective for a wider population

There are multiple limitations to this study from that angle, the most pressing one being that this is a study of a general population as opposed to a study of a trans population. Presumably, even the children who were expressing gender discontent in this survey did not ever see a gender clinic (if the children who did express discontent got medical care for their discontent than that kind of invalidates the study) as gender clinics are traditionally gatekept to all children but those with the strongest dysphoria.

I do believe that is is an American concept, which isolated as such does not exist in Europe (we e.g. do not have separate abortion clinics either, mostly).
This study also does not say if people got further treatment for anything else, they very well might have.

 

[The_J]

This definition is useless--garbage methodology. You're reducing the rich tapestry of queer identity and self-expression to a binary option? Let alone the most extreme option??? It's like asking people if they like their parents or think they should be summarily executed. I have no clue (beyond being really cynical about the researchers' ulterior motives) why this definition was uncritically selected, especially when their own examples seem less than convincing?

The undetlying data is a 132 items questionaire about everything in a teenagers life. They probably really had only 1 question which they could dedicate to this item, and it had to be understandable to 11 year old children. It is very most probably not optimal.
But what would have been a better question , to capture this in a sensible or appropriate way? Hard to say, I guess.

 

[CKS]

I'll just point out that "I wish to be of the opposite sex" is not necessarily particularly related to being trans. It could mean that the person recognizes significant advantages in society to being the opposite sex. For example, "I wish I were a man because men are allowed to have both careers and children without people commenting on it," or "I wish I were a boy because then my parents wouldn't make me wear dresses." Being discontented with gender roles is totally unrelated to being trans.

"I wish I were female because then nobody would say boo about my attraction to men" is about realizing one is not straight, but it also is not about being trans.

A better item to find out about who identifies as trans would be "I am trans, even if I haven't told anyone else," or maybe "I might be trans," if we want more wiggle room. If you really think 11-year olds don't know what trans is, you could add a definition.

 

[madviking]

But what would have been a better question , to capture this in a sensible or appropriate way? Hard to say, I guess.

Uhh very easy in fact! Trans people aren't these rare and arcane creatures--you're talking to a bunch right now! I think it'd be best if you listened to what they have to say, rather engage in this sophistry. Like sure, thank you for bringing to our collective attention this study, as flawed as it may be. But the underlying ""problem"" isn't with trans people, it's society's treatment of trans people--very, very different things!

 

[Qactus]

About that study: Using a statement such as "wish to be of the opposite sex" for the conclusions they draw is not only inaccurate, but may in fact be dangerous.
Wholeheartedly agree with madviking and CKS here. Thinking of my own kids I wouldn't be too surprised if both of them answered that question positively, for reasons not at all related with gender dysphoria and simply because they could see how it'd make it a lot easier for them to pursue their hobbies.
But then what happens? Couple of years later my daughter realizes she doesn't need to be a boy in order to play football and it really is just about finding the right group of friends, not giving a * about what others say, etc.
The thing is, in that study these kids' results would be conflated with trans kids' ones, in a way diluting them, painting a picture that transness is a phase/feeling that will go away. And regardless of the initial motivation of the study, the data will be misused, next time a discussion comes up regarding access to healthcare/treatments for trans kids. Opponents can then point to the data, and use "disappearing gender discontentedness" as an argument for example to deny treatment to trans kids. As in "think of all the kids we saved from transitioning"

The undetlying data is a 132 items questionaire about everything in a teenagers life. They probably really had only 1 question which they could dedicate to this item, and it had to be understandable to 11 year old children. It is very most probably not optimal.
But what would have been a better question , to capture this in a sensible or appropriate way? Hard to say, I guess.

Well, I can imagine something along the lines of "I think/feel I actually am a boy/girl" would be a much more specific statement than "wish to be of the opposite sex"? Important here: even though I think that'd be better, should I be tasked with the design of such a study, the natural first step would be to ask trans people about their experiences as a kid, letting them make suggestions which would resonate with their younger selves.

 

[NovaKart]

This is about a Korean spa in which customers go naked and a pre-op transgender woman objected to it. It’s actually from last year, but I heard about it recently. I wonder about the issue because this is going to continue to come up and about the implications of self ID and how our society is going to adjust.

Washington Korean spa ordered to drop ‘biological women only’ policy after trans complaint

A Korean spa in Washington state that requires nudity in some areas was forced to wipe its “biological women only” policy by a Seattle court earlier this week. What started it: Olympus Spa, which has branches in Lynnwood and Tacoma, was hit with a discrimination complaint by transgender woman...

sports.yahoo.com

 

[Synobun]

Spas in Europe miraculously don't have this issue, because they're mixed sex. Nothing terrible happens and everybody is fine.